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With Scott Orn

A Startup Podcast by Kruze Consulting

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Scott Orn

Scott Orn, CFA

Michael Chapp of Utomic on Startup Hardware & Giving Back to the Community through Entrepreneurship

Posted on: 10/07/2018

Michael Chapp

Michael Chapp

Board of Directors - Utomic

Michael Chapp of Utomic - Podcast Summary

Michael Chapp of Utomic talks about the entrepreneurial journey and his Company’s iPhone protection hardware. Utomic has a community focus in addition to being a successful startup and Michael shares their programs in the podcast. It’s an inspirational story about how a startup can help build the community and great products.

Michael Chapp of Utomic - Podcast Transcript

Scott: Welcome to Founders and Friends podcast with Scott Orn at Kruze Consulting and today my very special guest is Michael Chapp. I don’t know what company, is it Utomic, is it your official banner you’re flying right now?
Michael: Yeah, yeah it’s Utomic.
Scott: Okay, but Michael was a renaissance man he’s got a bunch of stuff going and he’s an awesome guy, he’s an entrepreneur. He’s got a really cool kind of social impact project he does too, which is one of the main reasons I wanna have him on, so welcome Michael.
Michael: Thank you very much, Scott.
Scott: Yeah, so we met through what Jim or who did we meet through? Aaron Hayles? Evan?
Michael: We met through Evan, but I have to give a shout out to Barry at operators because they’re the one who, with Evan kind of got us connected. If that didn’t happen then this would never have happened today, so thanks to those guys.
Scott: That’s like a social/business networking group. All good people and very smart people and we do a lot of business with them. So maybe you can retrace your career a little bit?
Michael: Yeah, so I always say that I grew up in large corporate America. I grew up in a family where it was always going to work for the stable companies and you live a long career there and I think I always had that entrepreneurial itch in me and I started way back when, when I was 19 working for General Motors and one of my first ideas was actually kinda adding biometric sensors in the cars and I just remember this blank stare of people looking at me back in 1999 like what? Obviously today it’s something we actually talk about. So I did, I lived a good career in large corporate America. Spent eleven years at Hewlett Packard.
Scott: You look way too young to have spent eleven years somewhere already.
Michael: I appreciate that I think it’s the Asian blood in me. I appreciate that. You know I started working R&D at Hewlett Packard and I really love the teams there, but I was invited to go and I wanted to go to MIT for their Sloan Fellow program and during that process I met some amazing people and basically went to work for an entrepreneur, serial entrepreneur and that was kind of what took it to the edge for me, was the getting over that hump because I think we get so comfortable in our job, but we may have that itch of like “ I wanna go start something,” But it’s getting over that hurdle and having that person who might inspire you to go do that. I haven’t looked back, I’ve loved it ever since, that entrepreneur was Sal in Boston and I love him for giving me that opportunity to get me over that hump.
Scott: Yeah, I have the same thing with Vanessa and my mom actually. My mom owned her own business and I saw that growing up and then nothing’s more like, enticing than when you’re watching your wife or future wife build a company you’re like, “Oh that looks really fun, I think I’m gonna jump in with you.” Of course, you and I both know that it’s not all sexy, fun time with a startup, but it’s incredibly rewarding. So what was Sal’s business, what did he do?
Michael: So you know, it’s interesting I’m an engineer by background, [inaudible] but he actually had a food business. He was in fast food, he had pizza businesses and he grew out franchises there and he got into fine dining and then he had food commissary, where he was doing food production and then commercial real estate and then high tech. So the guy just had this ability to be able to create and bring people with him. What’s so inspiring was you go and you look at what you’ve learned in large corporate America, what you’ve taken away from business school, but really what makes an entrepreneur that’s I think the essence where you have to actually work with somebody or pick up from somebody else that you don’t learn in those traditional avenues, but the combination could be very impactful.
Scott: Did you find yourself saying we can’t do that or we shouldn’t do that and then him being like “No we can do this” or what was it like? What was interplay like?
Michael: So I was brought in to bring structure to an organization, right so most entrepreneur you’re the explorer, you wanna constantly innovate and to kinda bring structure to that is something most people kinda frown upon or look at and like “What are you doing? I don’t quite understand.”
Scott: We have a saying here that people love structure and bureaucracy as long as it doesn’t affect them.
Michael: Exactly that’s great.
Scott: “I love it, yeah let’s make some more rules. Oh, that rule affects me so no I can’t play by that rule,” You know?
Michael: So kinda having that entrepreneurial spirit and being able to understand that innovative cycle, but also understanding the need for structure, I think it just created a mirage of being able to carry a company through the innovative side to how do you scale and how do you structure something. So I was very fortunate to have gone through the entrepreneurial innovative side, through that scaling side to the full structure and how do you just codify it and build a business from there.
Scott: Was it like because a lot of times entrepreneurs even us, were still doing something probably not the best way, our friends are helping us on something, whatever. So like do you get in there and you’re like “Okay, we gotta hire real professionals for some of these jobs and straighten this stuff out and make sure we know where all the money’s going” and things like that?
Michael: Absolutely, you know the big part is always first coming out with [inaudible] where you at and then start analyzing the operations. And there are things that actually some textbooks are saying you’re doing wrong and you shouldn’t do but in some cases you know it’s actually the right thing to do for your business. You know what’s better than a textbook so it’s finding those cultural pieces that make your company take, that you wanna actually build upon and not like crush and I think that’s where it takes time. But yeah then other components you bring in experts per say, you know in quotes, to kinda come in and help but at the end of the day, they still have to fit that culture and understand the vision and how you’re going to get there and not cripple it.
Scott: It’s hard for them sometimes because they don’t understand the backstory of how you got somewhere. Someone interviewed Sumner Redstone, who I think has passed, but he built CBS basically from the ground up. He was like a hedge fund guy saying like, “How could you possibly run this super complicated business?” He’s like, “It’s easy I built it, I know how everything works” and so there are times like that when you’re an entrepreneur where you’re like, “I know exactly why we do this and I know here are the three things we tried before …” I actually had that conversation at Kruze Consulting yesterday where a couple of our newer team member was suggesting some stuff and I was like “That’s a great idea, we tried that two years ago, here’s why it failed.” Maybe the answer would be different actually right now and we’re going to actually try it. There’s all this inherent knowledge an entrepreneur has and I feel like knowing you a little bit, your personality is good you probably are good at drawing that out and helping get the backstory and make an informed decision.
Michael: You brought up a great point. It’s always revisiting those questions or why we couldn’t do it before?
Scott: Why it didn’t work.
Michael: In large corporations, that plagues the large corporation and that’s one of the reasons why I think they can’t innovate fast enough is they’ll say, “Ten years ago we tried that and it didn’t work” and that’s where as an entrepreneur you have that opportunity to kind of embrace that and say yeah it didn’t work two years ago, but guess what the technology advanced, we’ve advanced as a company, we know our industry better and now we can actually deploy that with success and that’s a big part of it. And also we go back to the culture side of it is making sure that you share that story, that backstory because of the root of where you’ve been kind of dictates how you’re going to make decisions in the future and don’t be afraid of that.
Scott: You were so right, I think that’s one of our strengths is being willed to revisit because it’s a little bit of a pride thing where you’re like wow I really messed that up last time.
Michael: Yeah.
Scott: Your kinda like almost embarrassed but it is like yeah we’re probably a different company or sometimes honestly you just have better team members who just really are really more professional or have more experience than the previous team members trying to execute on that including yourself. Sometimes you just learn so much in the last couple of years you can execute on that.
Michael: Or maybe you went too deep into the weeds and you really need to just pull back and view your company from a different perspective. Honestly, that’s one of the hardest things right? You get so passionate about your business and you’ve seen it grow that you kind of need to take a step back every once in a while and just say is this really what’s right or am I just caught in the momentum of, we’re just riding the moment right now.
Scott: It’s the working in the business versus working on the business.
Michael: Exactly.
Scott: Which I really believe in. Okay, so you did HP and then you went to work with this amazing, successful entrepreneur and you learned all these life lessons and how to build a business and then what did you do after that?
Michael: Honestly that’s where I found that what I love doing is creating a growth and that includes jobs. I looked back and I was like you work in large corporations if you work on a project you move a resource from one project to another but are you really creating tangible jobs up the street. And that’s where when I worked with Sal I really realized he’s creating real jobs off the street. And so I was like you know what let’s go create a startup and we had this consulting business which was working with succession plans for companies and coaching and Working with executives. We’re like you know we’re starting to work with startups but we have this like imposter syndrome right? Like we’ve started a consulting business but have we really created a startup per se.
Scott: We embrace being a startup immediately because we serve startups too but were like no, no we’re a startup too we’re not going to get this exactly right let’s keep innovating.
Michael: And that’s key and that’s awesome that you guys did that because I think we kind of thought of it in a more structured way and I think it was the startup that we had created which was Utomic so [inaudible] is our consulting business and so my other two co-founders Victor Chung and Alexander Cart we kind of looked like, “Do we have a product” and they both came from HP.
Scott: Didn’t you guys wanna make a product. You’re like “We should do this.”
Michael: Yeah so it’s kinda funny, when I was working for Sal, Alexander was working on the four corners to protect your phone so basically a new style of protection, minimalist and he sent them to me when I was working at Sal in Boston so he’s out in San Diego and I looked at these things I’m like, “What the heck are these things?” At first, I called them Chiclets, right? I’m like “How is this supposed to protect my phone I’m like, “but you know what I love you man, I’m gonna try these out.” And I put them on and after about a month I was hooked. I’m like, “I can’t go back to using a case anymore.”
Scott: So Michael’s company has created a protection for cellphones for iPhones. You put them on the corners we still get there this is I think the key inside you still get the feeling of holding the phone and this bulky case right? That’s really nice.
Michael: I should have you as our marketing guy.
Scott: That’s it and you’ve shown it to me a bunch of times. By the way, I don’t even know if I told you this but I think a week after we have lunch I sat Vanessa having some of those on her phone and I was like oh my God I recognize those.
Michael: Well I appreciate it yeah.
Scott: So it’s not a giant physical product but it’s incredibly useful.
Michael: Yeah we’re all engineers so he kind of took the concepts from your brain right? By a mimicry, your skull and then you have in your brain you have the flu and supporting that and your brain and we kind of think of your phone as the brain you know and then we have the corners they actually have an adhesive membrane.
Scott: Do they really?
Michael: They do which ones it sticks it allows it to shift so once there’s an impact they move to dissipate their energy away from the phone.
Scott: Oh my god that’s crazy I didn’t know that much engineering was in there.
Michael: Oh yeah so that’s the thing we actually have people who try to look at this is simple.
Scott: So it’s like a shocking absorber.
Michael: Exactly, so you can imagine it’s easy to kind of dictate something up and make it look ugly but it will be protected, but it’s more difficult to make something very simple and elegant and work. We kind of use a football analogy again because or just like you put the elbow pads on and the knee pads you don’t swarm the whole football players so they can’t perform.
Scott: So where do people buy these right now like everywhere?
Michael: So you can buy them on you Utomic.com we do have retailers to read it throughout the United States, but we actually started internationally so, in contradiction to most companies that you hear about in the United States, we actually started internationally, meaning our market where we sold first and then we bought it back to the United States.
Scott: Why did you do that?
Michael: There are a couple of things, one was US market is really tough, consumer critics are everywhere so we wanted to make sure we had a salad of the foundations we could to build off of and a big part of that was our customer service so can we have 24/7 customer service because you have to support all these different time zones right, if you can do that you got it. Then we wanted to learn import, export, customs, and things like that but a big part of it honestly was We were in a recession. So we were looking for areas where the economy was strong the current sea was strong and so could we make sure that we were going to have a sustainable business out there and looking for growth markets other than the US in mobile accessories business.
Scott: Wow that’s crazy. I would have thought it would be something like it was close to your production facilities or something like that.
Michael: This is the irony of it, we built you Utomic on for things and this is what we kind of get into. One was we wanted to build a business in the commoditized market. So Alex had this wonderful idea we were like can we build an international brand in the commoditized market? You can get much more commoditized than mobile accessories but can we build a premium brand.The second part is could we do good and do well and this is what we’ll talk about is right off the bat we didn’t wanna wait until you make profits to give back to your community we wanted to do it immediately, so we build a business around adults with disabilities and parents who wanted to get back into the workforce.
Scott: That’s awesome.
Michael: And then the third part was can we manufacture in one of the highest cost structures, California and actually make a business and profit.
Scott: We love grand taxes.
Michael: Oh man do we pay taxes.
Scott: So talk about adults with disabilities and a manufacturing that you do.
Michael: So we started off early I’ll give a backstory on why we did that. My mom was an occupational therapist so growing up all my friends’ hand like MS or work quadriplegic or blind. I did not know any better like these were my friends for all intents and purposes. How I knew them was what I saw and it wasn’t until I went to first grade where I started seeing there were differences but I still didn’t quite see why people were looking at them differently. And my mom her dream was always to have a workshop for these adults once graduate from school, K – 12 and we kind of fell short there. As a society and this is what I really want to get the word out about is and this is a unique part is we all have challenges right? I personally have dyslexia, I didn’t know about it until I was way late in my college career but my mom, I was her guinea pig and she did not want me to know because she’s like you figured it out in third grade how to compensate for it.
Scott: Oh she was like watching you and tutoring you?
Michael: Yeah as an occupational therapist she was always testing new things and I didn’t know as a child and now I look back and I’m like oh yeah this makes sense now, but she was like you know you figured it out on how to at least compensate enough to do well. You know I graduated valedictorian so she was like you figured it out. And that made me reflect a little because I started thinking back on it going you know it’s true one sweet dub somebody or label them and disabled that’s all we ever see right? And I have lots of thoughts like we all do but can you imagine waking up every morning and somebody immediately always looking at you from that lens.
Scott: And you’re not walking around with a sign on your forehead that says dyslexia or something.
Michael: Exactly.
Scott: Most of the audience knows that I started a nonprofit called Ben’s Friends that builds patient support communities. So we were connecting over this and there are different types of restrictions, but all those people are looking for interesting things to do with their time or build a career. A lot of them do like online work and things like that so that’s why I thought that this was so cool. So you basically were like “Hey I’m going to build a company where my friends can work at essentially.”
Michael: Yeah and I talked to Victor and we ran the idea and it was interesting because Victor’s wife was actually on the board of partnerships with industry and so we kind of connected again on a different level because I did not know that and so she connected us with them and from then the relationship kind of blossoms. We were startup looking for how to do what we were trying to do and build these products and we wanted to do in the US and so we formed an early partnership and they were helping us on the assembly and manufacturing side and packaging side and it kind of grew from there and we built our own facility and we just started hiring these adults with coaches and making them the backbone of our business.
Scott: That’s awesome good for you. What’s been the feedback from them like is it positive I guess or what have you heard?
Michael: Yeah it’s been a very positive I mean we’re probably one of the largest employers from them and what we do and the big part is we focus on the strengths right and that’s what they do as well. So it’s identifying what is the strength of each individual and then had away either engineer or build schools since were engineers to enable that or make it even easier.
Scott: Interesting… Like production tools.
Michael: Like production tools or you can just be anything you know it’s just like we really want to make sure that there something that we can have for everybody to do but you know one of the areas it has been a little challenging and it’s going to get a little bit more challenging for adults with disabilities in the near future. The Workforce and Innovation Opportunity Act that was passed in 2014, so one of the things we benefit from them will disappear pretty shortly here is peace mail work so what that is is individuals are paid based on the output that they create so you can imagine.
Scott: A little slower so The business can still make money from employing them.
Michael: Exactly, but what’s happening now is based on this new act, they’re trying to transition to make it equal for everyone which is also the right thing to do, but it makes it a little more challenging on businesses because you can imagine if one person is creating five widgets per hour amazingly well like high-quality, but another persons producing sixty, you know now I have to make a decision as a business owner whereas before it was great because I could hire both and both would benefit because now what’s going to happen unfortunately is unless I’m willing to take a hit as a company that one person who is making five or ten widgets per hour may not have that opportunity and that something we don’t want to see either.
Scott: That tough because I get why legislation would be passed that kinda try to solve that but I can see it’s one of those unforeseen consequences with government legislation.
Michael: So great intentions, but now the states are challenged with how do you make it successful and so now what they’re trying to do is do aptitude tests which hasn’t been really done in the past so for other industries it has but in this area now they’re trying to look at what our right fits based on aptitude and based on interests.
Scott: That’s tough though because then it’s taking almost out of the free market a little bit and making it more of a bureaucratic procedure I would think. I think probably, I would think, this is my hypothesis but being a startup being able to do this pretty quickly was hugely advantageous to you and allowed you to grow and employ more people and things like that.
Michael: Absolutely, I mean the one thing that was beautiful was the head of the resources to scale. So we started off small and as we were scaling they would’ve put more resources towards it and obviously, it takes a lot of training but it was something that we were willing to kind of work with you now we wanted to work with to see them succeed. There’s one thing that always stuck and I share this because it made probably the biggest impact to me and why I continue to always support this and see it and forward is the first day we brought everybody into our facility there was the first paycheck and.
Scott: Oh man that’s got to be awesome.
Michael: My co-founders and I, you know, direct deposit wasn’t set up yet.
Scott: Yeah so you’re handing them out.
Michael: So we’re handing out the checks and we walk over were handing them out and one young lady we handed to her and she just looks at it and she goes, “Is this right?” And we just look like “We think so, whoa did we miss something?”
Scott: We don’t have Kruze Consulting running our payroll [crosstalk] we hope it’s correct.
Michael: We didn’t know you back then. “We were like well let us go distribute the rest and we’ll come back.” Sure enough, we go back to the office we look at everything and “We’re like we think this is right.” So we go back out and we walk up to her and we’re like “We think everything’s right if you think anything’s wrong please let us know.” She just looked at us, she said: “I’ve never seen numbers this large before.”
Scott: Oh that’s awesome and she earned it.
Michael: She earned it right, and that’s the first time you start to be humbled in terms of we take it for granted that we have this resource if we have a bank account, that we know that we can get a job and fill it. She used her first paycheck to buy a gift for her mom.
Scott: Oh sweet.
Michael: Talk about selflessness.
Scott: That’s gonna make me tear up here, that’s amazing. Wow, you probably have like a hundred of those stories. That’s really cool. So, sometimes though with legislation, somethings about to expire and then at the last second congress redoes it, do you think that’s gonna happen or?
Michael: It’s hard to say with any administration where their heart is going to go with this the one thing that I have to praise Partnerships with Industry and I think there’s Arc up here in San Francisco. All the organizations across the country, I have to praise them for the fact that they have to work within these constraints right, they’re always trying to find funding to provide training for these adults. We talk to a lot of parents and the number one thing is the fear in their face which is what is my child going to do once they graduate and can you imagine not having that kind of set. I mean it’s bad enough most of us think what is there a kid going to do even if they’re able-bodied.
Scott: Well also you get so much positive feedback in your life from doing work and doing good work and things like that and people should not have to go without that. So, Michael, there’s another program which you guys started which is pretty awesome too maybe we can talk about that?
Michael: Yeah so we wanted to also look at another opportunity if you know how do we get parents who have taken time off once they had their child, you know they wanted to raise their child and you know know they’re looking to get back into the workforce and they may not have the confidence level yet because they’re still looking at “as my career still relevant as my education, maybe I’ve stepped away from my network for a little bit.”
Scott: Whatever you do, I think about that, like could I think about what could I do triathlons still? Whatever you’re not doing your mind tends to run wild and sometimes self-doubt creeps in so you guys help conquer that self-doubt.
Michael: Yeah and you’re right. It’s the self-doubt that’s actually worse than actually the outside world. We look at them the people who we have on our team and we love them because they’re so talented and we know that were stepping stone so they may move on but what we wanna do is at least provide that opportunity for them to rebuild that community that sense of confidence.
Scott: Pride and self-reliance. So how does this work? Is there a separate program and people contact you through that or is there another partner organization that you work with?
Michael: No so that’s all internal. So Victor Chang our HR guy he is phenomenal, he’s always looking at new ways of building companies so we as a team we kind of collaborate and all this, but he’s just really good at being able to identify amazing new talent. I was talking with him on the phone last night and you know one of the things that he brought up was he wants them to kind of self-manage and it’s this beautiful thing because of the flex hours. Somebody might have to go run to go pick up their kid from school but what they do is they manage themselves as a whole and he oversees it but he wants to make sure that they’re doing it. So you’re only as strong as your weakest link is what he says and I truly believe that because I watch and I sit on the calls and you can tell they all want to support one another because everybody has something that comes up but nobody takes advantage of it and I think that’s the biggest part is how do you build a system where people want to support it versus takes advantage of it because then that’s when they start to fall apart.
Scott: We’re starting to explore that too because we just had a baby, we’re back at work and then we have a couple of our team members that have babies and you’re right things always come up so can you find a way to make it convenient for everyone still get great people and allow them the satisfaction of doing the right thing for their family whatever needs to happen. So yeah my mom actually was telling us the other day that she allowed her team to go down to four days per week and also let people go pick up Their kids from school when she ran her company and it was one of the most important things to all the mothers that work there and actually the retention rate was super duper high because of that because of all the flexibility. Sometimes people take the short view of like “Oh it’s economically hurting me,” but actually if you’re retaining more of your team members it can actually be incredibly positive economically so it’s a classic win-win of a situation.
Michael: It really is. I mean when I look back in terms of the people we have on our team, it’s loyalty right. They’re loyal to one another and the company.
Scott: Yeah that’s a great point.
Michael: And it’s that family that they have created and we love it because we know that every day somebody wakes up in the morning they can choose to work for whoever they want and we are so fortunate that they choose to work with us, you know and that’s the way we approach it, is we want to have an open environment where people feel comfortable, challenging each other in a healthy manner, but being able to embrace our diversity of who we are as a company and if you fit within that mold, beautiful things can actually happen.
Scott: I totally agree. I mean we have working for each other is like being on a sports team, you try hard for each other same thing at work and in our work, there are some late nights, you know so people are doing it for each other or helping each other. Often times people stay late and help someone else with their work so that they can both get out of there at a reasonable time so yeah that’s really powerful. For those that are kind of considering this type of shift would you say profitability, growth, all those kind of like financial metrics are just as strong or perhaps even stronger because of the diverse workforce you have in these other programs?
Michael: Absolutely, So I would say there’s an upfront cost and I think that’s the part that most people get caught up on but it’s like with anything you need to kind of build the structure of front and say we’re going to commit to this but once you do it’s paying off tenfold. In terms of your [inaudible] are extremely low. It’s also the ability to be able to challenge and give people the growth mechanisms so they see a career path and it’s always touching base with everybody who works with you saying “I know you’re doing this today, what would you want to do six months from now or a year from now?” And that’s one thing that I think the company does really well we always are embracing that part of it and he can be in any form.
Scott: It’s so funny, you’re making me feel good about us. Because Vanessa just sketched out like a career progression for many many years, we didn’t even present it to the staff yet, if they listen to this before we presented it’s coming, but that’s exactly what we’re trying to do and it feels good to be in a position that you can be thinking that way instead of just like survival mode all the time and so that makes me feel good about what we’re doing too. As someone, as nonprofit and helps a ton of startups like you’re making a huge impact both for your company and saving the iPhones of the world from breaking, but also it’s really cool to hear how you’re helping people with disabilities and also people that have been out of the workforce for a while. Do you ever think you’d be in this situation or did it just kind of happen?
Michael: It kinda just happened. I honestly didn’t, I’m a firm believer of just embracing opportunities and working with great people. It’s kind of taken me many different dimensions. I’m just happy that we were able to create this opportunity. It was something my mom had dreamt of and it was nice to be able to kind of make it come true and have her come and see the facility and see everybody working in harmony. That’s really probably the thing that you can never take away.
Scott: Most rewarding, that’s awesome. That’s your gift to your mother. That’s really cool. Well, Michael maybe you can tell everyone where they can find you tell Mike and all your other projects and thanks for coming on this has been awesome.
Michael: Thank you so much. So you Utomic, if you’re looking for a great protection for your phone you can go to Utomic, U-t-o-m-i-c.com. Some other companies that I just wanted to give a shout out because they’re doing amazing with adults with disabilities as well and supporting this initiative is ethalivefully.com so they’re actually a [inaudible] they’re working on some alternative biotanicals for pain relief.
Scott: Oh, how do you say their name again?
Michael: Etha, e-t-h-a, livefully.com and then also we have Hyperops, which they’re a supply chain, on a blockchain.
Scott: That’s a cool name by the way. That sounds like it could be a Star wars spaceship or something like that.
Michael: Yeah, so they’re all doing great things, supporting adults with disabilities as well and so anytime I see that I would love to give a shout out to them as well.
Scott: You’re changing the world in more way than one and I could see from the smile on your face and the smile it gives me, that it’s awesome. So congratulations, thanks for coming by. Is there a website we can check out like if someone has a business that they can, I missed the name, it’s Partnership for…
Michael: So it’s Partnerships with Industry, this one is specifically down in San Diego so we’ve really enjoyed working with them, they’ve been doing a phenomenal job trying to train these adults. Then I think there’s also, I looked it up last night I think its Arc, up here in San Francisco, there are ones all across the country of these organizations who are really working on training adults, there are ones that for instance even on website development. Do not get caught up in labeling, please look beyond that and look for bringing in adults that are amazing and will support your organization like you will not believe, I guarantee you.
Scott: Good for you man, all right thank you, Michael, appreciate it.
Michael: Thank you.

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