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With Scott Orn

A Startup Podcast by Kruze Consulting

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Scott Orn

Scott Orn, CFA

Dave Zohrob on Chartable's podcast analytics and attribution for publishers & advertisers

Posted on: 08/24/2020

Dave Zohrob

Dave Zohrob

Co-founder and CEO - Chartable

Dave Zohrob of Chartable - Podcast Summary

Dave Zohrob on Chartable’s podcast analytics and attribution for publishers & advertisers. Chartable also makes podcast charts from Apple and Spotify from around the world.

Dave Zohrob of Chartable - Podcast Transcript

Scott: Hey, it’s Scott Orn of Kruze Consulting, and welcome to another episode of Founders and Friends. And before we start the podcast, let’s give a quick shout out to Rippling. Rippling is the new, cool, payroll tool that we see a lot of startups using. Rippling is great for your traditional HR and payroll. They integrate very nicely, but guess what? They did another thing. They integrate into your IT infrastructure. They make it really easy for, when you hire someone, to spin up all the web services and their computer, which sounds kind of like not a huge deal, but actually, we did this study at Kruze. We spend $420, on average, just getting a new employee’s computer up and running and their web service up and running. It’s actually a really big deal. It saves a lot of money. And the dogs are eating the dog food. We see a lot of startups coming in to Kruze now using Rippling. So, please check out Rippling. Great service. We love it. I think we have a podcast with Parker Conrad. You can hear it from his own words, but we’re seeing them take market share, so shout out to Rippling. And now to another awesome podcast at Kruze Consulting’s Founders and Friends. Thanks.
Singer: So, when your troubles are mounting in tax or accounting, you go to Kruze from Founders and Friends. It’s Kruze Consulting Founders and Friends, with your host, Scottie Orn.
Scott: Welcome to Founder and Friends podcast with Scott Orn at Kruze Consulting. And welcome to my very special guest, Dave Zohrob of Chartable. Welcome, Dave.
Dave: Thank you so much for having me, Scott.
Scott: So Chartable is… I mean, we are, again, we’re really doing a meta podcast here. We’re doing a podcast about podcast analytics. I’m so excited.
Dave: This is what I live and breathe. I live for this stuff, man.
Scott: You talk about it probably 10 times a day.
Dave: Yes.
Scott: So first of all, start off just by telling everyone how you… Retrace your career and how you had the idea for Chartable.
Dave: Sure. Yeah. So, I’m an engineer. I’ve been working in startups for a long time. I’ve been coding since I was a little kid, building stuff on the internet. Like when I was in middle school, built like a [inaudible] programming tutorial website. For Christmas, I got a domain for my parents in like 1994.
Scott: That’s awesome.
Dave: So, that’s the kind of nerd I was.
Scott: You’re a little ahead of me.
Dave: I’ve been building stuff forever. I’ve founded a few companies, worked at a few companies. I worked at hotornot.com and AngelList for like five years.
Scott: No way, Hot or Not.
Dave: Yeah, yeah, for sure. Yeah.
Scott: You must have been in high school or something.
Dave: No, I was… I mean, I joined in ‘05. I mean, I’m almost 40. I’ve got two kids. So, I’ve been doing this for a while.
Scott: You look young.
Dave: Thank you, I’m going to take that.
Scott: Well, Hot or Not was the Berkeley… I went to Berkeley too. And it came out of Berkeley in the… I remember that. I was like, “What is this? This is amazing.”
Dave: Yeah, it was a funny… I mean, honestly, I answered the craigslist ad thinking it was like a joke, right? But it turns out it’s really small group of really, really smart people made that thing. And I’m still in touch with basically everyone there. And founders are investors in my company, and friends, and everyone I’ve worked with there is… But anyway, it was like my startup school, how to make a business. It was like spitting off cash. And there’s like five people that work there.
Scott: Yeah. [inaudible 00:03:03].
Dave: So that was my intro to startups in the Bay area. And it was just a fun time to be building something on the internet. It’s like Web 2.0 era. I ended up starting a mobile apps company in the early days of the iPhone, working in AngelList for five years, building their recruiting platform. And then my co-founder and I were both working at AngelList and decided to leave around the same time. You know, we’re both already dads at that point, we’ve done okay in startup land. No home runs, but done all right. And thinking like, well “We’re never going to get any younger. It’s never going to get any easier to take risks. Let’s do it again”. And so, we left without having any idea of what we were going to do, just like a timeframe. I knew I wanted to have another kid. And I was like, well, either we have something going before then, or go get another job.
Scott: The next two years are shot.
Dave: Yeah, exactly. Yeah. You know, we started off with the first few things we built didn’t work. Like we built some customer service survey software, all this stuff that didn’t work and we learned various things. You learn a lot by what doesn’t work, of course. It’s better to learn by having something that does work, but you take what you can. After that first round of experiments wasn’t working, we just made a big list of stuff saying, “Hey, what can we do? What are we interested in? We’re running out of time. Let’s do something that we’re at least interested in trying to have fun with”. And somehow podcasts are at the top of the list. I’ve been a listener for a long time. Never thought about it from a tech or business perspective, right? And so, we just spent a few months learning about podcasts. Like we made a podcast called Hacker Daily, which is an audio summary of Hacker News, the Y Combinator news board.
Scott: Oh yeah.
Dave: Yeah, and it took off. We put up a landing page on Hacker News and we got hundreds of signups within an hour. And I was like, “That’s crazy, people want us to read them the news? Like what kind of weird world is this, right?”. And then, so we did the show. We did the show daily for over a month. And everybody was like, we have thousands of downloads the first day. And we’re getting like $5,000 a day or something like that, which is crazy. Crazy for an indie show, not crazy if you’re NPR.
Scott: Yeah.
Dave: But I was like, “What is going on? Like, why do people want…”, and not only do they want us to summarize the news, people were like, “We really want to hear your opinion. Why don’t you guys give us more commentary?” I was like, “This is crazy, right? Why is anyone listening to me, right? And if they’re listening to me, then they must really be starved for content. They must really love this medium.”
Scott: Yeah, yeah.
Dave: And so…
Scott: It’s also, I have a theory that people we see are… Especially now with COVID, we see our friends so much less that podcasts… This is weird, but podcasts become your friends.
Dave: For sure.
Scott: The voices [crosstalk] on the re-watchable. And I feel like those guys are my friends. I still love my normal friends, but it does take the place slightly of what’s going on.
Dave: Yeah. So, we had a wonderful experience making the show, but doing a daily show is insane. And I have incredible respect for people putting out content on any regular interval like that. And so, we thought like, “What can we do with our skills as programmers that this market actually needs?”. A first thought was, “Let’s make an app”. It turns out we interviewed a bunch of listeners and nobody wants to change their app. Right? So, “All right, okay. What else can we do?”. And there was a real pattern match to the app store in the very early days where I was making apps with Jim, my co-founder, who was one of the founders of Hot or Not. And every day you’d get downloads once a day from Apple, do your refresh this iTunes page frequently. Apple R, Apple R, refresh, refresh. And they tell you how many downloads you’ve got at like noon Pacific or something. And podcasts are not that, but they’re not that far off from that. Right? It’s like, when we were making our show and you get $5,000 a day, it’s like, who are these people? How did they find us? Like what?
Scott: And here’s the thing. I got some bones to pick.
Dave: Okay, let’s do it. Yeah. [crosstalk] It’s a super weird world. Yeah.
Scott: I’m surprised you even knew you had 5,000 downloads a day. Cause I don’t even know how to get that data, so…
Dave: Podcasting for those that don’t know, it’s one of the few kinds of open ecosystems out there where it’s like kind of anyone can make a podcast. So, you can put up the show anywhere. It’s not like YouTube where there’s one place, like Doodle owns YouTube. You go to youtube.com, you open a video or you upload a video. And when people press play, Google says, okay, somebody clicked play on that video. A podcast is like the opposite. Like there’s a zillion places you can put the podcasts. Like Apple doesn’t host the podcast, Spotify doesn’t host the podcast, you do on some server somewhere with some service you’re paying for. And people are going to listen in any number of zillions of different ways. Like they’re on their phone, on their computer, in their car, on a smart speaker. There’re airplane seat backs that also play podcasts now, right? So, it’s not at all like the kind of standard model, the centralized model of the internet these days. So, it presents some unique opportunities and challenges.
Scott: You are solving a pain point for many people like me. So, you basically wanted to participate in the ecosystem, and you’re like, “Hey, I don’t know where these 5,000 people are coming from. Maybe we should build something there”.
Dave: Yeah.
Scott: Build this wall they’re coming from.
Dave: It’s like, it was a lot like the app store. And what happened with the app store is that there are companies that came up, analytics companies like Flurry and App Annie, and all these things to help app developers figure out how to grow their apps. And we’re like, “Okay, we’re just going to do the same thing for podcasts”. We built a prototype. It all happened pretty fast. So, we got a ton of traction, which never happens. And it was the opposite of our customer service software that didn’t go anywhere. And so, we were just like, “All right, let’s do this”. Just since then, we’ve just been learning from our listeners and trying to solve their problems. Like how do I grow my audience? And we’ve recently, in the last year have branched out to advertisers, and advertisers have the same problem, which is, “Buy a podcast ad? Who’s listening? How do I know if the ad actually worked?”. All these things are really simple in the YouTube world where everything is controlled by one company, but very difficult in this kind of distributed ecosystem.
Scott: Yep. And I went to business school at Kellogg, which is the marketing business school. And it’s drilled into… We were talking about some marketing terms before we turned on the mic and I was like, “Yeah, I know that stuff”. Cause I’m not just an accountant. But it’s drill ROI, drilled into every marketer nowadays. And Google gives that to you, Facebook gives that to you, and it seems like you’re cracking the code on podcast advertising.
Dave: Yeah. We’re doing our best. We don’t have the same data that Facebook has on you. And a lot of people would say, “That’s a good thing”, but we do have… People treat podcasts like they treat what the industry would call offline media, like a subway ad or a billboard or something.
Scott: Yeah.
Dave: There’s a coupon code. And podcasts aren’t a subway ad, but they’re also not Facebook. They’re somewhere in between. And we’re doing our best to give advertisers as much information as we can about what’s working.
Scott: Yeah. I think people buy TV ads or maybe even radio ads a little bit to this degree, but it’s like reach and…
Dave: Yeah.
Scott: And it’s like these magical kind of qualitative benefits to you, or at least that’s what my friends in the business pitch. But you guys are like a digital medium, podcasting is digital.
Dave: That’s right, podcasting is digital. [crosstalk 00:10:04].
Scott: That’s why I think it’s so awesome. So, okay, you figured out the analytics. Maybe walk us through the meat and potatoes on the analytics and then segue that into how it works for an advertiser, maybe there’s an example.
Dave: Yeah. So, for publishers, the kind of standard number that gets thrown around as a download, right? Like somebody open up their phone and download your podcasts, right?
Scott: But download that… This drives me crazy because everyone does downloads, but that’s not listenership.
Dave: They’re not listenership, but because we don’t control the environment in which the podcast is listened to, we don’t know necessarily who listens. Now that has changed in the last couple of years, and one of the things that we do for publishers is aggregate the… There is listener consumption data that Apple and Spotify provide to publishers. And now also recently Google and Pandora, they’ll tell you how many people are actually listening.
Scott: Oh, okay.
Dave: And so, one of the things we do for publishers is say, “Okay, if you connect your Apple and on your Spotify accounts, we’ll suck in that data and put it alongside your podcast, and we’ll make it mean the same thing”. Because if the definitions of their stats are slightly different, right? So, we make it an apples-to-apples comparison. Right? So that was the original vision for what Chartable was. And when we built that, we thought, “Everybody’s going to be banging on our door for this”. And we were wrong. You know, we were just a little bit early. We’re nerds so of course, we think about the world in terms of, it must be listeners and it must be, you have to have the right data to make the decision. And podcasts, the ad market is still so small, even though the audience is so big that most of the people… And this is still true, most people are motivated by their creative or journalistic impulse. There’s so much overlap with public radio. So, a lot of mission driven stuff happening. Which is wonderful, it’s part of what makes the medium so great, but these people aren’t necessarily thinking like, “Gosh, I really wish I had a super tight definition of a listener”.
Scott: Yeah. They’re not cold hard capitalists.
Dave: Yeah, exactly. Because of course, you and I are like, “What’s the definition of that? How do I get more of those?”, right?
Scott: Yeah.
Dave: So, it’s been fun to help sell those problems for people. So, for publishers, the first step was getting all the data in one place. The second step was, “Okay, well now I know who’s downloading and who’s listening. How do I grow” Right? And so, we built the first, and still the only, attribution link, like a Bitly type thing, just for podcasts. It’ll tell you how many downloads come in through a link, which nobody had ever done before. I have no idea why, but if you’re ever doing any promotion for your show, you want to know “Is it my Twitter that drives listeners, is it my newsletter? Or if I buy this ad on Facebook, is that working?” We’re the only way to get that data for growing a show. We’ve since expanded that. So, I went to save one of my… I’ll give you a talking point, forgive me for this. Chartable measures the listener journey. Right? So, one part of the journey is from the internet to your podcasts. Like, “How do they find it?”. Another part of the journey…
Scott: Discovery.
Dave: Yeah, discovery. Right? So, there are links give you attribution if you’re trying to grow your show that way. Another part of the journey is, one of the biggest channels for advertising podcasts is on other podcasts. Right? If you listen to any shows, I’m sure you’ve heard promos for other shows. Right? That’s because it really works. People always knew it worked, but they never had any numbers. And we were the first ones to actually [inaudible 00:00:13:08], give people hard numbers on how many new listeners came over from a podcast promotion on another show. So, that’s the second step of the listener’s journey is going from one podcast to another. And then the final step, which has been the most recent change in our company’s journey is figuring out if the ads work going from the podcast back out to the internet. Right? And these are all various flavors of what marketing tech people would call attribution. Right? It’s like, “Where are people coming from? Where are they going? How do I know if something’s working or not?” Whether I’m an advertiser trying to sell something or a podcast or trying to grow my audience, I want to know how to do it. Right? So, for us, it’s like the same kind of data backbone underneath all this stuff. And then we package it up in different ways.
Scott: That’s amazing. And the ad the attribution… I know, again, I sound like a cold, hard capitalist. But people who need to justify the spend, need that data.
Dave: Yeah.
Scott: I think it’s unlocking a positive cycle where people can spend more money on their podcast production and make them better. Maybe make them [inaudible] and things like that because they can monetize them better. It is capitalism at work in a way, but I think it’s in a positive way.
Dave: That’s the happy capitalistic interpretation. I mean, that was our thesis going in. Right. It’s like, “Okay, why don’t people spend more money on podcasts ads?” Well, it’s really hard, even if I love podcasts ads and podcasts and I’m a marketer somewhere, I have to convince my boss. Right?
Scott: Yeah.
Dave: And I feel like that’s a lot of folks. When they think about these systems, don’t necessarily think about the people in the seats who are actually controlling these decisions. What do they have to do? They have to convince somebody higher than them that they’re doing a good job. Right? And it’s really hard to do that. Like when you spend ad dollars on Facebook and get a crazy level of detail about how it’s working and they’re like, “Okay, well we spent $20,000 on podcast ads and we got 20,000 downloads”. It’s like, “Okay, what does that mean? Facebook gives you all this stuff, go spend more money there”. It makes me what better as a buyer, right? or makes my boss think I’m doing a better job, which is maybe a cynical view of it. But also, there’s some reality to it. So, we think that better attribution will flow all around the system. Like podcasters should be able to show that the ads… We know the ads work and our attribution can show that they work better than we even though they did. And so, if that’s true then more ad dollars should flow into the system, which should mean more money for creators, which means more great shows for listeners. Right? It’s like everybody wins here. Right? Perhaps rosie as that might sound, that’s what we truly believe. We love the media and we want to see it grow.
Scott: I’m so there. I’ve been there for like… I’ve been doing my podcast for, I think, five years now.
Dave: Wow dude, that’s awesome.
Scott: But I felt, you know what’s funny about that, is I thought I was late to the game. I listened to a bunch of other podcasts and I was working at thought-out, which is a software developer, and they were doing podcasts. And I was like, “Hey, show me how to do this”.
Dave: Yeah.
Scott: And my buddy Dan Croak, who’s the guy who ran San Francisco, showed me. And I was like, “Ah, it’s a little late, but I’ll just do it for fun”. So, I’m, I’m convinced, I know it works. I know people talk about it, I know people listen. So, I love what you’re doing.
Dave: Thanks man.
Scott: And to me you’re bringing clarity to this ecosystem that really lacks the clarity. And I think it’s going to make it a lot easier to convince people and probably normalize… It will make people who don’t listen to podcasts, feel more comfortable listening to it and experimenting and kind of jumping on the boat. Because right now they may not, they kind of know that people talk about it, but they may think it’s goofy or whatever.
Dave: Yeah. It’s like for whatever reason, there’s this stereotype or whatever, archetype of a podcast listener as like a coastal elite. Like listening to NPR shows only, right. It’s like only This American Wife, right? Which is a great show and I’ve listened to it, but there’s all kinds of shows, for all kinds of people, for all kinds of different reasons. It’s not just this like stereotypical listener, right? And in fact, there’s not a hundred million people listening to podcasts in the US. Most of them are not like that, right? Most of them are not… It’s like some of the most popular shows are stuff I wouldn’t ever even have heard of. Right? So, it’s funny that you think that the boat left five years ago, the boat is still here.
Scott: The boat’s still here.
Dave: I only got on a couple of years ago and I feel [inaudible] separately.
Scott: Yeah, exactly.
Dave: Yeah.
Scott: Well then maybe complete that journey from, now that you’ve got the data. How do you… Do you guys talk to advertisers? Do you guys talk to brands or…
Dave: Yeah, we work with both sides.
Scott: What’s your role in the ecosystem?
Dave: Yeah, so we work with both sides. So, in order for the attribution to work, you really need data from the publishers and creators. They have to be willing to trust you to share their demo data with you. And then we also triangulate that data with the advertiser data. So, the advertisers have to trust us to put a little snippet of code on their website too, right? So, we have to sit in between all these guys and gals and do a good job threading the needle here. It’s like, we don’t want to under-report, we don’t want to over-report. We want to be as reliable a source of information about what’s actually happening, no matter what. Right? Part of the way we got here was by building tools just for publishers, we didn’t start out building tools for advertisers. And we really quickly built up a base of some of our publishers in the world, like using us for the audience analytics tools.
Scott: Yep.
Dave: And once we have all those publishers, it’s like, “Well hey, we have this data”. We have advertisers emailing us all the time saying, “Hey, can I get that data?” It’s like, “Well, we’re not going to give you somebody’s private data, but if they want to share it with you, well, we can act as like a broker”. It’s like we can be [inaudible] right? We can help do this in a way that respects listener privacy, respects the relationship between the publisher and the advertiser, but also gives good results, right? Give as accurate as results as we can. So, we just kind of evolved into this role here, we’re serving both sides. And the advertiser side of the business has been growing really… We were worried about what happened. Overall ad spending in the world dropped significantly due to COVID, but in an uncertain environment, which there’s all kinds of uncertainty all the time, even though things have been trending better economically for a little bit, attribution becomes even more important. So, we were really worried when all this stuff first hit, for obvious reasons. We’re also based in New York and a lot of our team got sick. It’s was a totally insane time.
Scott: My God.
Dave: Yeah, it was insane dude. I’m sure the experience on the ground in California must’ve been different than here.
Scott: We just locked down really early, so we came [inaudible] trip, and there was the big SaaStr conference. And we were like, “We’re not going to that”. And I was talking to the rep the whole time I was on vacation trying to tell him not to have the conference. But the day after we got back California shutdown, I think, so it’s kind of just happened. Or, San Francisco shutdown, San Francisco was the first.
Dave: Yeah.
Scott: So, our experience is definitely different, because you had friends and team members getting sick, which is really scary.
Dave: Yeah.
Scott: [inaudible] what’s happening in the ad market, what’s happening in the podcast market. I’m sure it was like the triple whammy for you.
Dave: Yeah dude, March was like a month that was not terribly fun. From a personal standpoint, I got sick, my wife got sick, and who knows if it was COVID or not. Right? But it was an intense time.
Scott: [inaudible 00:20:15].
Dave: Yeah, we survived through that, thankfully. And the company has been doing really well. What we offer actually becomes more valuable in this time, which I feel very lucky about. Right? There was a dip in podcast listening right when everything locked down. For a lot of folks, podcasting is coupled to commuting. For obvious reasons, we’re habitual people. Like when I walk out my door and walk down to the train, which I haven’t done in three months, I opened up my podcast app. Right? That’s what I do…
Scott: Totally.
Dave: And so, we’ve all had to find new ways to change up our media habits, but podcast listening has returned to pre-pandemic levels and is still on the rise. So, we’re super optimistic about that too.
Scott: I’m just so happy for you and your co-founder because you guys… First of all, I didn’t know about all these iterations and different businesses [inaudible 00:21:01], because you just came to me as like the guy who figured out podcasting analytics. I was like, “This guy is smart. He really knows what he’s doing”. But to iterate and then land on something that’s working, that’s super cool. And then I think you’re in a 10- or 20-year mega trend and you guys… This might be the last job you ever have.
Dave: That’s the vibe that I’m feeling too. Like when I was a younger guy, I always had such a short time span. I was living in San Francisco and building social apps. Right? And it’s like, “What’s the hit, got to get a hit”.
Scott: Yeah.
Dave: And here I’m like, “Well, this is… I don’t want another job”. Right? I’m really enjoying this. As difficult and as challenging as it is, it’s also super fulfilling, and I feel so lucky to be able to do it. And I love this medium, it’s so cool. The people that work in podcasting are so cool on the publisher’s side and the advertiser’s side, I love our clients. Right? And so what else can you ask for? I’ve got a great team. I actually care about what I’m doing. Like, what else? I mean, that is the luckiest… I’m the luckiest guy, man. I’m like, “That’s it”. So, I am committed to this for a long time. And actually, having that 10-year timeframe, it makes everything a lot easier. Right?
Scott: You and I are in the same boat, like age wise, family wise. And you’re right about that long-term commitment. Cause I’ve only… I’ve been doing Kruze for five years, a little more than five years.
Dave: That’s great man.
Scott: [inaudible] the scale, now it’s getting easier and even more fun. And I can see, we’re in a different mega trend, but I can see the same mega trend. And it makes those investments… You can make those investments of your time and energy and you know it’s going to benefit for 10 years, not six months.
Dave: Right.
Scott: You know what I mean?
Dave: Yeah, for sure. Yeah, it makes some of the pain… If you know the pain is going to pay off over 10 or 20 years, that makes it slightly better. Right?
Scott: Yeah. This has been amazing. Can you just spend like… Give people a look into what’s coming up for Chartable, and then we can talk about where they can find you.
Dave: Yeah, sure. So, we’ve spent a lot of the last quarter really just kind of tightening up our product offering. And so, if you are thinking about making a podcast, or are making a podcast, we’re the only game in town when it comes to getting a holistic picture of what’s happening with your show and giving you the kind of data-driven tools to grow it. It’s really complicated, we still have a lot of work to do to make it simple. I’ll totally admit that, but we’re working on it and we’re committed to it for the long term. So, makes it easier to think, “Okay, well, this isn’t perfect now, but we’re going to kind of keep chipping away at it”. And if you’re thinking about buying podcast ads hit us up. I mean, my podcasting is an incredible medium, or if you’re thinking about starting a podcast for your business, it’s such… And Scott, I’m sure you can speak to this. It’s such an incredible medium for connecting with people. And I think one of the things that people trip up on a little bit when they get started with it is that the numbers are so [inaudible 00:23:59], like page views on a website, right? Like, “Oh, I get so many hits on my blog”. It’s like, “Yeah, those hits are about two seconds of somebody’s browser. Maybe it’s a bot or something”. Right? When you make a half an hour podcast, most people, and we could hook up your Apple stats and you can check out Chartable for this, most people are listening to the whole dang thing. They spent a half an hour with you or an hour every week or every other week. That’s crazy from a business standpoint, that’s nuts. Right?
Scott: It’s amazing. And from a personal development standpoint, I got to listen to a world expert in podcasts analytics for last half an hour. [inaudible] So I’ve gotten so much smarter just from the guests and also met a lot of great people and made a lot-
Dave: Yeah, I’m sure, and that’s fantastic, man.
Scott: I really recommend it.
Dave: Yeah, absolutely. You know, we’re just, we’re turning the crank on what we’ve got. We’re building better tools for publishers, better tools for advertisers. And we’ll be here for the next 10 years to do the same thing.
Scott: I love it. I love it. Well, maybe we can do like an annual state of the podcasting market.
Dave: Yeah man, that’d be fun.
Scott: Well, and then maybe you could tell everyone how to reach you and how to reach Chartable.
Dave: Sure, so Chartable is at chartable.com, and not charitable.com, which we get often. And I’m Dave@charitable.com, if you want to hit me up over email. My Twitter is hard to remember. It’s D-Z-O-H-R-O-B. First initial, last name, but I’m there. I’ve also got a podcast I’m hoping to restart called Chartable radio. Maybe Scott, you could be one of my guests on that one too, I’ll return the favor.
Scott: I love it. I’ll be on any podcasts.
Dave: It’s fun.
Scott: It’s [inaudible] the early days of blogging-
Dave: Totally.
Scott: Where everyone’s kind of building their expertise and you help people get their one going. I like it a lot. And again, it’s the same benefit I get from interviewing people. Being interviewed is actually so much easier. Your mental… Maybe not this, because you’re doing so much talking, but I find that I am so much more relaxed when I’m actually being interviewed.
Dave: For sure.
Scott: You know, it’s-
Dave: Yeah. No, I get a lot sweatier when I’m doing the interview.
Scott: Well hey, you’ve built a really cool company, tell your co-founder, “Thank you”. And it’s been a pleasure.
Dave: Thanks so much.
Scott: I’m going to be maybe sending a few emails, being like, “Hey, how do I get this?” I’ve already, just so the audience knows, I signed up like six months ago or a year ago. And I still have a hard time with the Apple side of the equation. And we’re all friends with Apple here, we don’t want to pick a fight, but, “Hey, Chartable will solve that problem for us”.
Dave: Yes, we’re working on it. Let’s put it that way.
Scott: Bye buddy, thanks so much.
Dave: Thank you, Scott.
Singer: So, when your troubles are mounting, in the tax or accounting, you go to Kruze from Founder and Friends. It’s Kruze Consulting Founders and Friends with your host, Scotty Orn.

Learn why Kruze Consulting is one of the leading accounting firms in San Francisco and Silicon Valley by serving funded, early-stage companies. Our clients have raised over $15 billion in venture capital and seed financing, and our research and development tax credit work has saved clients millions of dollars in burn rate and payroll taxes. Contact Kruze to learn more.

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