Michal Cieplinski, Pipe CBO - Trading Platforms for Startups

Michal Cieplinski of Pipe - Podcast Transcript

Scott:	Hey, it’s Scott Orn of Kruze Consulting. And thanks for joining us on Founders and Friends for another awesome podcast. Let’s give a quick shout out to the Kruze Consulting accounting team. We’re very fortunate, we have a ton of people at Kruze who work on the monthly books for our clients and get them all set up, due diligence ready, rocking every month, answering all the clients’ questions, making all those adjustments. And there’s no better moment for a founder, and for us really, when a founder says, “Hey, I think I’m going to get a term sheet, are my books ready for diligence?” And we get to say, “Yes, they are. Fire away, send them over, give them access.”
Scott:	That is a great feeling, it’s the feeling that lets us know we’ve done a job very well done, and nothing is better than watching that cash hit the bank account. So if you are a venture-backed startup, you’re going out to fundraise, maybe check us out. Check us out kruzeconsulting.com, we love what we do. At taping here, I think we have 575 clients. Clients raised over a billion dollars this year, so we know what we’re doing. And hopefully we can help you be successful in your fundraise. All right, let’s get to the podcast, thanks.
Singer:	(Singing) It’s Kruze Consulting, Founders and Friends with your host Scottie Orn.
Scott:	Welcome to Founders and Friends podcast with Scott Orn at Kruze Consulting. And today my very special guest is Michal Cieplinski from Pipe. Welcome Michal.
Michal:	Hi, Scott. Welcome.
Scott:	We’re laughing because he was giving me instructions on how to say his last name. You guys are a really exciting company, I’m excited to have you. We’ve been talking for a long time and I think we’ve been sending some clients over to Pipe, and so it’s time to have you on the podcast, welcome.
Michal:	Yes, you are. Yes, you are. Thank you. It’s truly a pleasure.
Scott:	Yeah, well maybe you can start off just by retracing your career a little bit and telling everyone how you landed at Pipe and what was so cool about it?
Michal:	Well, my career, it’s a bit of a whirlwind of various actually careers. I’m one of those guys that started… and I started as a trader in hedge fund world in Europe. I’m originally… so you can probably sense it from the accent, I’m Polish, but I grew up in Belgium and in Israel. So I started as a trader, then I did a complete 180 to make my parents happy and became a lawyer and a partner at Schulte Roth & Zabel, which is a major law firm just dealing with hedge funds. If you deal with hedge funds, that’s pretty much a law firm for majority of those. Exited then hedge fund world, became an operator, actually, at one of my clients at the Bank of New York Mellon, in the wealth management group. Spearheaded European operations, then US operations. At the height of it, I had 700 to $800 billion in asset under management reporting within my structure.
Scott:	Wow.
Michal:	So massive operations, the bank of other banks. Then-
Scott:	Were your parents happier with you when you had the 700 billion reporting to you or when you were a lawyer?
Michal:	Well, my parents were happy that they could understand. Lawyers, they do understand. Banker, they do understand. Anything else-
Scott:	Okay, good.
Michal:	So right now, interestingly enough, I’m back to the bottom of my cousins being doctors and lawyers are much better off because they can be explained. So my parents are architects, so you need to have a trade in your hands.
Scott:	Yep, yep, yep, yep.
Michal:	And entrepreneur is not a trade, let’s put it that way. Or a founder of businesses. So following the Bank of New York Mellon, together with Eyal, I co-founded Fundbox, which was my first-
Scott:	Oh, I didn’t know you were part of Fundbox. That’s awesome. Amazing.
Michal:	Yes. So I was part of the founding U.S. team. I created the structure of what Fundbox is right now, from the legal and operation point of view. I always interjected those two worlds, and utilizing my legal background, just like many of other great operators utilize their background, either in finance, I don’t have that one. I have a trading and legal background, so I utilized that one. Started Fundbox, which was the original FinTech, one of the first-
Scott:	It was. I actually just talked to one of your co-founders, maybe like a month ago, and I’m forgetting his name, but he’s starting another company in-
Michal:	Sebastian or Eyal?
Scott:	I think it was Eyal.
Michal:	Eyal, yes.
Scott:	I can’t quite remember though, but yeah, super… And actually, one of the Kruze alumni actually went and was a controller at Fundbox as well, so I know the company. And then I’m familiar with Blumberg Capital, I think is one of the investors.
Michal:	Yes, Blumberg is, David is one of the investors. Well, we’ve raised from a lot. We’ve raised from Mr. Bezos himself, General Catalyst, Khosla Ventures, Spark Capital, PIMCO. It’s really, it was the creme de LA crop, and building it at fully automated. So we, from the very beginning… which is what carried… So the story of Pipe is… many of my friends laugh at this, they say like, “Well, how come in two years you built such a big company?” And I say, “Well, the story of Pipe started about in 2010 when we started with Fundbox”-
Scott:	All the lessons.
Michal:	… “because it’s always been a reiteration of.”
Scott:	Yeah.
Michal:	So Fundbox, for the listeners, was one of the original FinTechs. Is one of the original FinTech. Very successful. And we have been providing financing to small and medium enterprises, but really on the smaller side on an invoice. So basically, cutting the so-called net 30/60/90 problem, which is the merchant credit. So again, for all those listening, if you have a small business, you’ll find yourself with, effectively speaking, financing your purchasers, because they will never pay you at the time of the delivery of goods. They would want 30/60/90, and sometimes even more, of what is called the merchant credit, which is, “I will pay you after I actually sell that.”
Scott:	Yep, yep, yep, yep.
Michal:	So Fundbox was bridging that gap. Following that, I got approached by Steve Allocca who was head of PayPal Credit, and just became a president at LendingClub at [inaudible] to assume an operation and legal role at LendingClub following the events there.
Scott:	I was friends with some of the LendingClub people too, Mike Norris, and I’m forgetting the other guy’s name who’s on the institutional side, but yeah.
Michal:	Yeah. The interesting part is that I know both the old staff and the new one. I was charged with becoming or in acquiring a bank. So on my CV, I can always put, “Well, I acquired Radius Bank, and actually we became the first FinTech that became the bank.”
Scott:	I remember that, I remember that.
Michal:	Yeah, together with Steve, turning around, truly turning around the shop into the modern FinTech. And proof is in the pudding, when we entered the stock trade at two to $3 a share, when we left in fall of 2019, it was at 20s and then in the 40s in the spring. So I think it’s a fantastic business, one of the largest consumer FinTech lenders. If you think about it, we were doing over a billion dollars in loans a month and there were days, there were weeks when we had 30,000 to 60,000 applications a day.
Scott:	Wow. That’s insane. [inaudible].
Michal:	Yeah, it’s a massive operation that is meeting the needs of Americans that get into credit card debt. The major use case of LendingClub is credit card refinancing. But then, through one of the investors, Harry and Josh, my co-founders at Pipe, raised a pre-seed round on the basis of we will find a way to finance SaaS businesses, and through the investors we got connected because I guess it was [inaudible]… so David Sacks led that round, David also [inaudible] one of the seed rounds at Fundbox and we got connected and I joined the founding team of Pipe. And Pipe, the story of Pipe is as follows. I knew-
Scott:	Well, let me interject real fast. They are so blessed to have you because those are two of the iconic… Fundbox and LendingClub, you know? And you’ve worked your way through a ton of legal-
Michal:	I’m truly blessed also to have them.
Scott:	Yeah, of course, of course, but-
Michal:	But so a little bit about, about my co-founders. So there’s four of us. So let’s start with Josh this time. Josh leads our product. He is truly a visionary when it comes to the UX and very much how Pipe feels, and looks and feels, it’s to his benefit. Harry is a master of the sales organizations. I always wished I had a co-founder like that. And finally I have. And Zain is an engineer extraordinaire, truly a wonderful human being if you ever… Get him on the podcast. He’s just one of the best humans out there.
Scott:	That’s awesome.
Michal:	Not that anybody else is not good, but it’s just Josh is just… [inaudible] a good human.
Scott:	Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Michal:	And but then it comes to me with the financial services background. I knew very little about the SaaS, they’ve never been in FinTech, Pipe got created. So and maybe a little bit now to the listeners, what’s Pipe, so that we could talk [inaudible]-
Scott:	Please, please.
Michal:	… use cases. So Pipe’s, from the very beginning, we realized the following, we need to create a… not another FinTech, it’s been done. I’ve done it at Fundbox on the cons commercial, consumer at LendingClub. We wanted to create FinTech 2.0, which is actually a trading platform. So what Pipe is, and Pipe was dubbed in the media as, NASDAQ for recurring revenues. We are a trading platform for recurring revenues. Instead of trading equities, like the ones you trade on… or fixed income, you trade on exchanges like NASDAQ or NYSE. At Pipe, you trade recurring revenues. We have the companies with recurring revenue, and I know that we’ve been also dubbed as SaaS, but we started with SaaS B2B, that was the initial… what Harry and I went into our investors to raise the funds, but right now, two year since funding, nearly 50% of our volume is non-SaaS.
Scott:	Wow, really? That’s amazing.
Michal:	We’re just commercial. We have property management fees, venture capital management fees, massive direct to consumer platforms. We have movie and TV royalties trading platform. I just finished talking with one of the largest owners of music royalties. Every single thing that has a recurring nature can be traded on a platform. Because from one site, so from the companies with recurring revenues, we look like a financing provider, just everybody wonders why we can compete with the banks, with other sources for capital, because we actually don’t compete with them. On the buy side, we have the banks. One of the largest purchasers of this type of an asset of recurring revenues are banks, credit funds, and family offices. They view this as a fixed income asset. Because when you think about it, this is the time how Pipe was born. Literally, Harry, Josh, and Zain sat in a WeWork in West Hollywood in 2019, and they explained to me how SaaS operates. I knew very little about SaaS, and I basically Googled, went to Investopedia, Googled the definition of the fixed income, turned around the screen and I told them, “Read this. This is how I view it.”
Scott:	Yeah, yeah. That’s great.
Michal:	They viewed it as a product because they were on the sell side, I viewed it as a buy side. I viewed it as a stable, recurring revenue, fixed income coupon that somebody can keep buying.
Scott:	Yeah. Well, for the audience, Fundbox and probably Lending Club, historically FinTech, you start with expensive capital, you’re doing the loans on your own balance sheet or some funding mechanism, and the FinTech playbook is to drive your cost of capital down. And that’s ultimately probably why LendingClub became a bank, or bought a bank, because they could have low cost of capital. What Pipe is doing is, “Hey, we’re not going to lend off a balance sheet. We are going to connect people whose balance sheets will drive their behavior. And their rich appetite will drive their behavior. And their cost of capital will drive their behavior.” That’s kind of like the leap you’ve made, right?
Michal:	Exactly. When you think about what I call FinTech 1.0… And again, I’m a co-owner of Fundbox-
Scott:	You were there. You were there. I was actually funding-
Michal:	… and I’m a co-founder and I’ve seen it. We’ve sold-
Scott:	We didn’t actually talk about this, but I actually funded a bunch of companies and my partnership funded a bunch of companies, in that world, like OnDeck Capital, ZEP Finance, I looked at Wonga a… All those companies. Fundbox was right in that zone, right in that time.
Michal:	Our whole sales team comes from Kabbage. So Rob and I, founder of Kabbage [inaudible]-
Scott:	Yeah, Kabbage. Yep.
Michal:	So I took the team out of there and we were able to build a sales team of over 20 people in a space of a month, because we took the team that was working together with each other. It’s just those relationships that you, as an operator, you build over the years. But coming back to Pipe, the reason why… Also, there’s a couple things that I like to always say the audience. We are anti-equity or anti-venture debt. That is misconception from the day one. We’ve raised over $350 million in equity capital, a lot of this from venture capitalists, but also from ecosystem players, which I know, Scott, you mentioned you want to talk about it. So let’s put a pin on it for a second.
Scott:	Yeah, yeah.
Michal:	There’s time for equity. Typically, it comes at the seed stage. In order for a company to enter Pipe’s trading ecosystem, you need to have revenue. Because you’re trading recurring revenues. So a situation like Theranos without revenue, would never happen. And so there’s a place for venture capital which is seed, round A, building the company. The moment-
Scott:	They’re also no mutually exclusive, you know? You can do both very successfully.
Michal:	Exactly. And that’s what happens typically at round A and B, or for bootstrap companies, the moment you have recurring business, you should be doing both. You should be doing equity for the exponential growth. Pipe is the working capital. Pipe is the earned contracts. What you trade on Pipe is your recurring revenues. The contracts that you signed, you’re just waiting to get that money, because it’s either paid monthly or quarterly over a period of a year, two years, or three years. So we are basically pulling all of that capital forward to enable the companies to fund their operations so that they use equity capital for that exponential growth, while Pipe is used for working capital day-to-day, what’s needed every single day to turn on the lights.
Scott:	Great. I love it.
Michal:	And it’s the same as venture debt. There is a space for venture debt. I know that you were involved in it. On the Pipe trading platform, you trade a percentage of your MRR or ARR, however you look at it. So monthly recurring revenues or annual recurring revenues. A lot of time venture debt will provide several times your MRR or ARR, depending on how your business operate. That’s, again, used for that exponential growth. There is a time we actually cooperate with three largest venture debt providers, where we sit together, there’s equity, there’s venture debt, and then there’s Pipe.
Scott:	That’s awesome.
Michal:	We’re just an additional source of capital. And right now with what’s happening, so we’re recording this on May 18th for the audience, so stock is where it is. Stock market. And equity financing is where it is as well. So-
Scott:	Yeah, it’s a tough market right now. What we’re seeing is tons of seed and still tons of A, but the series B, series C, the midstage rounds are getting tougher. And as a lot of VCs are-
Michal:	Exactly. Seed and A, I’m an angel investor in a lot of companies. Seed and A is like nothing happened. But this growth stages-
Scott:	Yes. Yeah.
Michal:	… are getting tougher and tougher. For all listeners, instead of trying to do a down round or a flat round, contact Pipe. If you have recurring revenues, you can actually monetize on them and move your business forward, capital. So one of the reasons, and one of the stories of one of the largest investors in Pipe, it’s a huge bank, I always represented together with Harry, we deal with investor relations, that we are reinventing debt. And the chief operating officer of the bank stated, “No, Michal, you’re actually not only reinventing debt, you’re really reinventing capitalism.” Because what really Pipe is, if you think about it, is a massive risk transfer platform from the sell side to the buy side, there is nothing that would prevent my two daughters, that are seven and 10, in 10 years when they get their first jobs, to connect their ADP or whatever their [inaudible]-
Scott:	Oh, wow. That’s awesome.
Michal:	Ah, you see, Scott.
Scott:	Yeah.
Michal:	If you connect your salary provider, whatever it is, your bank, why wouldn’t Mubadala, Government Pension Plan of Norway, Japanese banks, Swiss banks, they would love to have access to that credit. And it’s [inaudible] hundreds of thousands of people like this, this is really what Pipe is. Pipe is-
Scott:	For the audience, just in that example, the… I forget what bank you named, but their cost of capital is probably zero, or point something.
Michal:	It’s probably negative at this point, yes.
Scott:	Yeah. It’s like, the yield spread for them, for buying these traded receivables or invoices or promises for payroll in that example, is super attractive as long as it’s safe. Because they’re in the business of making that spread. That’s what I think is so fascinating about what you’ve done, is that you’re letting people who have way lower cost of capital, judge the risk, judge the security, judge whatever it is, and make a bet. And these are smart lenders. These are smart people who-
Michal:	Oh yeah, we have smart credit [inaudible]. So Pipe is actually two things. So on the sell side you see, so in the companies with recurring revenue, so you see us… And that’s probably part of the reason of Pipe’s massive valuation. We’ve been valued at over 2 billion, our stock in secondary transactions trades at way over, which is what’s actually unusual for the secondary transaction to trade at a premium. But it’s the realization of what we have created
Michal:	At the very beginning one of our investors of round A, Jim Pallotta, compared us to… He’s one of the best hedge fund traders out there, ran Tudor, and now has a fantastic private equity group called Raptor Group. Jim told me how Pipe is very similar to Uber or Airbnb. And I was like, “No, we’re not.” And he said, “No, no, you don’t understand.” Jim is hardcore trader. He’s like, “No, no, no, you don’t understand. You’re building two companies at the same time.” This is hat really Pipe is. When you think about the Uber, we have a driver app and a rider app. Me, as a rider, and you, as a rider, we’d never see the other one. There are other functionalities, like insurance, car leasing, background checks, and all of that stuff on the driver.
Michal:	So the same thing with Pipe, we actually have two companies that we’re building at the same time. We’re building the sell side company led by Harry and Josh. That’s the companies with recurring revenues. And then we have another company, the buy side, led by me, which is the institutional investors. So on that side, we built a trading platform, not for folks… I know that crypto is not right now en vogue, it was, but now everybody is licking their wounds, but [inaudible]-
Scott:	It’ll come back. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Michal:	Oh, of course. But if you look at the Coinbase Pro, that’s what pretty much we have built in, not four years like they, but in less than eight months, we’ve built a fully institutional trading platform, which connects to the trading terminals at hedge funds. And on top of it-
Scott:	Oh, I didn’t know that. That’s really cool.
Michal:	Oh, yeah.
Scott:	That’s amazing.
Michal:	And on top of it, we built a ratings agency system. So you actually trade in the baskets of companies on the basis of grade. So we follow Fitch naming methodology, think of AAAs, AA, A, [inaudible]-
Scott:	Is that kind of like your LendingClub background, too? Because LendingClub had the same tiers, A, B, Cs, and then sub-tiers and that.
Michal:	Exactly. But where we flipped it, Scott, is LendingClub’s model was a black box. We actually fully disclose the ratings.
Scott:	Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Michal:	So folks, I can’t disclose our buy side participants because we are under the NDAs-
Scott:	Of course.
Michal:	… and they don’t want folks to know that they are playing on it because they want to get the best assets as soon as possible. But the reality of it is, the way they work, they study our ratings methodology and our ratings, and on top it layer their [inaudible]. So they know what type of companies they like to invest, they identify it in our ratings methodology, and via their own trading terminals, they bid for it. It is a trading platform.
Scott:	Hey, it’s Scott Orn and we’re going to take a quick break from the podcast to give a shout out to the Kruze tax team. Gosh, it’s so nice to have an in-house tax team, I can’t even tell you. We have some really amazing professionals on the team. It’s over, I think it’s 13 people now, and we do everything from your federal state income tax return, state franchise tax filings, R&D tax credits, those are pretty popular these days. And guess what? They’re there for you when you go through diligence. A lot of people don’t know this, but you actually go through tax diligence, not just operational, financial diligence, but you do go through tax diligence. So it’s nice to have Vanessa Kruze on the phone with your VCs and with the accounting firm they hired to diligence all your stuff, and the law firm they hired to diligence all your stuff.
Scott:	Vanessa knows what she’s doing, she’s done this a million times. And it’s not just Vanessa. We have a really great team of passionate professionals that will do those calls, too. It’s kind of sometimes the difference between getting around closed or having it take a another two weeks because something was disorganized and the tax compliance wasn’t done correctly. We hear those horror stories from clients that come to us. So hey, if you want Kruze’s tax team on your side, we’re here for you. Check us kruzeconsulting.com. Thanks.
Scott:	Oh, so I didn’t know they were bidding. I thought they were just kind of… So there’s a competitive market, it’s almost like a bond market, where people are bidding and driving the yield, yeah.
Michal:	It’s a bond, it’s a fixed income. Exactly. You’re bidding, you’re having… each entity on the platform has standing orders with pricing for each and every grade, and if their bid wins, they get allocated recurring revenues on the platform and then they clip the coupon out of it.
Scott:	That’s really amazing. It’s impressive. And you’re right, you guys have built this like in two or three years, right? It hasn’t been very long. It’s been-
Michal:	It hasn’t been very long. I haven’t slept much. It’s every day I joke, I try to get up earlier and earlier.
Scott:	Your beard has a few gray hairs in it. You’re still mostly colored [inaudible].
Michal:	Yes. Yeah, but I’m developing a lot of gray hair. We actually shared a picture. So we have the picture when we started the company with Harry, Josh, Zain, me, Lukas Wagner, our CFO. We look so much younger. And that’s only two years ago. That’s the funny thing is that, the realization of it is that I don’t really understand… So one of the quintessential thing, I don’t really glorify founders funding startups, et cetera, it’s hard.
Scott:	It’s really hard.
Michal:	You are probably better off doing something else, financially speaking. There’s very few that succeed, and even that, when you think about it, you could probably better off doing something else. You really have to like this, financially speaking. I mean, I know the stories, but this is-
Scott:	We’re the same way. Yeah, same way.
Michal:	… the 0.001 that really makes it out of the blue. The rest is a 10 year spiel, and after 10 years you have 5 million in equity. I mean, you’re better off and getting Google or at Amazon or wherever else. So the reality of it is that you have to like that kind of the world of the whirlwind. And the fact that that.. and I couldn’t really understand it like 20 years ago when I started with it, why do people want to hire only with experience with startups? The reason for it is that startups is a self-starter game. There’s no real boss. The boss is you and your own expectations against yourself. And even with the C-suite, yes, we have people reporting to us, et cetera, et cetera, but they are their own self-starters, they are-
Scott:	For sure. That’s how startups are built. Yeah, I totally agree. And Kruze’s the same way. We’re a startup too. I’m third employee, my wife started Kruze 10 years ago. 10 years. Takes a long time to get where we are. I have to be respectful of your time, so we’ve only got a couple more minutes, but we talked… you put a pin in it, with the kind of ecosystem players, but quickly talk about that. Like Shopify, who the other investors in Pipe and how that [inaudible]-
Michal:	So we took a very unusual step to fundraising. We have raised from venture capitalists, but majority of our money came from the ecosystem players, from the banks and from other, what we call them, originators. So Pipe.com is what you guys see as Pipe, but in our bigger vision, it’s actually one of the… it’s the proof of concept, it’s the first originator. But there should be nothing to prevent Shopify merchants from trading their recurring revenues from their merchant dashboard. The same with Square, the same with Stripe, the same with NetSuite, and the list goes on and on and on.
Scott:	Oh, interesting. Accounting systems. I hadn’t thought of the accounting systems. But Shopify-
Michal:	You should be. When you think about it, you can’t call NASDAQ and say, “I would like to buy 10 stock of Uber.” You need to go via a broker-dealer, you need to go via a gateway.
Scott:	Yep.
Michal:	We are the trading platform. We built one of the gateways in order to build the market and prove the market, but we are in no way competing with other lenders as well. So you may say, “Oh, Pipe is competing with other lenders in this space.” No, that’s not true. There are several lenders that lend to recurring revenue companies, eCommerce companies. They’re actually trading thei loans on the platform. We are an access to capital. If you have a recurring revenues, and every loan, your car loan, your student loan, as a business, your SMB loan, is actually a recurring revenue to the buy side. Instead of raising a warehouse line… so for the audience, warehouse lines are just large credit lines that banks give to most of the FinTech lenders, you can actually connect via an API and have built a fantastic tech team and engineering team, where they build a whole system of actually connecting to our trading platform, where you can connect your loan system into the platform and start trading it directly. The same with Shopify and the merchants.
Michal:	Shopify merchants, or NetSuite or Stripes, we’d never know that they’re actually trading or obtaining their capital on Pipe. We’re not interested in it. If you ask me, “Do you know if LendingClub is on NASDAQ or New York Stock Exchange?” You would probably be like, “Okay, I don’t really know.” It doesn’t really matter. We are the venue for it, but we sit behind other originators.
Scott:	That’s super interesting. Michal, this is amazing, man. And I’m so glad. We were talking about your founding team, you have the same charisma. It’s awesome. I’m so glad I had you on.
Michal:	Thank you.
Scott:	Again, I have to be respectful of your time, but I could probably talk to you for like another hour. Can you tell everyone where to reach out to Pipe if they want to explore, if they want to use the tool, how can they get involved?
Michal:	Pipe.com. It’s actually very easy, it’s Pipe.com. You connect your data sources, your bank account, and your billing manager. So the way you bill with your customers. If you bill them via your own system, you can just export a CSV file and do that. The process takes two minutes, and if you do it before 1:30 Pacific time, the money is in the bank account the same day from the trade. So it’s an immediate… it really takes two to five minutes. I each and every time show it to our investors, that 45 seconds experience, and they are shocked that you can obtain that. So go to Pipe.com. When it comes to jobs, contact me on LinkedIn. We’re massively growing, great engineering talent and product talent is what we’re searching for. And capital markets. Pipe is a fantastic place to work and a fantastic place to interact and obtain capital. So that’s what we are.
Scott:	I love it. Thank you for coming on. Very excited about Pipe and looking forward to introducing you to even more Kruze customers. Thank you so much.
Michal:	Thank you, Scott.
Scott:	All right, buddy.
Michal:	Bye-bye.
Scott:	Thank you.
Singer:	(Singing) It’s Kruze Consulting, Founders and Friends with your host Scottie Orn.

Michal Cieplinski, Chief Business Officer of Pipe, discusses developing a trading platform for startups with recurring revenue to help them obtain working capital

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