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Scott Orn

Scott Orn, CFA

Venture Capitalist Anne Dwane of Village Global on investing with a founder-driven thesis

Posted on: 04/15/2020

Anne Dwane

Anne Dwane

Co-Founder and Partner - Village Global VC

Anne Dwane of Village Global VC - Podcast Summary

In a pre-COVID interview, Anne Dwane of Village Global, a $100 million venture capital fund, explains her fund’s “founder-driven” investment thesis. What does it take to stand out as a founder in her fund’s view? While this interview was recorded prior to the COVID crisis, we at Kruze really love the content and wanted to publish it so our subscribers could benefit from Anne’s great insights.

Anne Dwane of Village Global VC - Podcast Transcript

Singer: So, when your troubles out in tax or accounting, you go to Kruze Founders and Friends. It’s Kruze Consulting. Founders and Friends with your host, Scotty Orn.
Scott: Welcome to Founders and friends podcast with Scott Orn at Kruze Consulting. Before we get to an awesome episode with Anne Dwane of Village Global, quick shout out to Rippling. Rippling has the best payroll product on the market. They do great with benefits and they have a really amazing IT infrastructure integration. So, you can spin up all your new employees, connect them to all their web services super-fast. At Kruze we actually know, we did a study, it takes three hours to do this. Poor Tatiana, our operations manager does it every single time. If we don’t pay our IT consulting firm to do it, which is $140 an hour, which equates to 400 and something dollars, $500, $400. Anyways, Rippling will save you a ton of money on that. Plus, it just has a great payroll and benefits solution. So, checkout Rippling when you get a chance. Now Anne, thank you so much for coming on the podcast.
Anne: Well. Thank you, Scott. It’s nice to be here and I must give you props for the clever jingle that you have when your troubles are mounting and tax and accounting come to Kruze Consulting. So, kudos to you and to the artist.
Scott: Thank you so much. Evan Mar of Logical, his band made that, the jingle, and that makes me so happy. I know Evan is smiling as he listens to this.
Anne: Well my partner Eric Turnberg does a podcast called Venture Stories and Eric is a very talented freestyle rapper and I might challenge him to up his game to match the Kruze Consulting jingle.
Scott: Yes. We’ll have to introduce them to Evan and they can do a battle of the bands.
Anne: Yeah, exactly.
Scott: Well, so Anne, can you introduce, kind of retrace your career a little bit for the audience?
Anne: Oh sure. I was a longtime founder, a recent VC, and I’m just basically a fan of doing things better, faster, cheaper with technology and just helping people unleash their potential. My entrepreneurial career started back in the 1900s when, with Chris Michael and an amazing team, started a company called Military.com.
Scott: Oh, you’re Military.com? No way.
Anne: Yes. It was really early and it was a social and professional network for the military and veteran communities. Not about the politics in the military, but just helping people get their benefits and stay connected for life. Actually, next month we’re having our 20th year reunion. That company became part of Monster, which is in the job space in 2004 and it still persists today.
Scott: I used to work at Hambrecht & Quist, in 1999, and we did a ton of fundraising or M&A, or something for you. I just remember the guy next to me, [Noah Winterham 00:02:46], who I think is now like a Vice Chairman of JP Morgan.
Anne: Nope, no, actually took Chegg public.
Scott: Yeah, oh no way. Okay yeah. Okay. So, we have many points of connection. So, Noah was an associate when I joined and tutored me through a ton of stuff and he used to talk about Military.com all the time. So that’s amazing. That’s why I was like, “Oh gosh.”
Anne: Yes. That was the beginning of communities and in the internet and just serving a really a great community, and then joined Monster through acquisition, and then grew that and then got a call from the amazing, Mike Levinthal, who was at the time a partner Mayfield Fund and he said, “I’ve just angel invested in a startup team in Utah and they’re trying to make it a cinch to get in and pay for college for generation Z,” which Zinch was the name of the company. I flew out and was just so impressed with that team and joined them and then grew that company, raised some venture capital, started working with Chegg as our largest customer. Chegg came in and said, “We like it so much, we want all of your team to join Chegg.” So, we were acquired and then went through the IPO process there, which was a wild ride and just an amazing team there at Chegg.
Scott: We’ll talk about that a little bit later because at Lighthouse we did a deal with a competitor but we looked at Chegg many times and could never get to a deal probably because you picked someone else who had a better deal, and that’s what I can’t blame me for. But like I watched the whole thing happen and it was a really impressive ride.
Anne: Well and it’s a great team and I give the Dan Rosensweig and the team was great and it was actually, Dan suggested, he said, “Maybe your next chapter should be in venture.” So that was my transition and it’s really just a pleasure to back early stage founders as they’re making something from nothing.
Scott: I’ve had the pleasure of speaking to your group and you can see these are like savvy people, you prepared them properly and they are going out there. The range of … At least the last batch, their last group of investors or companies you invested in, we’re doing a lot of different FinTech stuff. I was actually really impressed, which is stuff I love.
Anne: Yeah. So, Village Global is a hundred-million-dollar fund and we are founder-driven not thesis driven in a sense. The thesis of our fund is really simple, which is that an extended network can help founders learn and grow faster, and there’s three levels to our network. The first is we’re backed by limited partners who are themselves very successful founders, who still have love of the early stage gate. So, it’s Jeff Bezos, it’s Sarah Blakely, it’s Bill Gates, it’s Magic Johnson, lots of people who’ve been entrepreneurial and we don’t want to over promise that, but we’re fortunate to have them engaging in events and opening some of their networks and in some cases following on in our investments, which is exciting. The second level of the network is that we curate a network of angel investors around the world who help us source select and support. We think some of those people are angels with an amazing track record and some are maybe first-time founders at series A or B, and they just have a tremendous flow of deals and good judgment. We can entrust capital with both of those groups so they can be out there selecting these entrepreneurs and then supporting them.
Scott: How does the mechanics of that work, is it like a scout program or do they come back to you and say, “Anne, I found this great company, you should invest in them?”
Anne: Well, once we pick that scout, we call them network leaders. They are authorized to do investments on our behalf. We think that if we all think alike, we don’t think very much. So, we find these people around the world who are at the first call for founders and it leads to a very interesting portfolio. But one you said, actually as you look at it, it does kind of converge, there’s a bunch of FinTech, there’s a bunch of AI and ML and there’s a bunch of digital health and the future of work and things like that. So, it’s not that surprising. But what we’d like to think is we are uncovering people early, we’re trusted and helpful and then hopefully we’re finding some people who might’ve been otherwise overlooked or underestimated.
Scott: I love that. You also said something I love, which is being founder driven. I happen to share the same philosophy. Maybe you can talk about founder driven versus maybe thesis driven and what that means for picking the right seed investments?
Anne: Yeah, well the best news is it’s never been a better time to be a founder. In fact, I think-
Scott: I say that like once a day. People are like, “Should I raise more money now or should I wait?” I’m like, “Raise more money now. This is as good as it gets.”
Anne: Yeah. Well, and it’s also like there’s more tools, there’s more support for founders. There’s more appreciation that it’s a very hard journey, but there’s a lot of people around to help. So, there’s no right way to invest. Just like there’s no real right way to start a company, but some investors are very skilled in a sector. They’re very hot on a particular kind of business model or something. So, their lens on the world is to go out and find founders delivering to those interests, and capitalizing on those opportunities. We believe that early stage, sometimes founders are conceiving of in markets that are quote unquote invisible, or maybe ill-defined, and are creating categories and we therefore will follow the person where they take us. Even some of the famous founders and very successful founders that have backed us said when they started, they weren’t exactly sure where things would lead. So, and that’s part of being a great founder too, is being, what do they say? Conviction on the long-term vision, but flexible on the details, and also be a bit opportunistic.
Scott: I also think, and I agree with everything you’ve said because I’m a founder driven person. Like you meet someone, they have a view of the world and you just can’t help but buy into what they’re doing. I think the other thing that you didn’t talk about, which is, often there’ll be an existing market instead of creating a market, which is usually better, like Amazon created a market, right? That’s a huge win. But there’s times, where like Rippling is a good example, where who would have thought of combining payroll and the Okta identity management solution, right? Like so those folks saw something in a market that was existing that could be exploited or built. So, I love people like that too.
Anne: Yeah. Sometimes I like to say that great founders are a little bit like comedians, not in their comedic value. So, some of them are very funny, but comedians don’t see a different world than the rest of us. But they see the humor in the world, and entrepreneurs don’t see a different world, they see the opportunity in the world, and they also get off their chair and go after it.
Scott: They do it. Yeah. Now you, we were talking before we turned on the mics and you’ve been an operator, you’ve been a VC and we’re joking, but I think it’s a legit question that we were talking about, which is what do you wish you knew as an operator that you now know as a VC? We probably do that question the other way too.
Anne: Yeah, I think you can’t control everything, but I think as a founder you have a couple of choices. What I’ve learned over the years, and having lived through 2001, which was really challenging, and 2008, we had to kind of go through some pretty tough times. In retrospect, a couple of things. One is to be laser focused on your next goals because there’s a lot of bright shiny objects out there. If you’re thinking, what needs to be true for me to drive value into the business such that it reaches its next inflection point, which is often raising money if you’re in a venture backed business. And that leads me to say things like, “If you don’t have a plan, everything looks like progress.” Then the minute you raise a seed round, you should be at least thinking about what would need to be true for me to raise a series A. Now you may be wrong about that and the market may change and things like that, but if you go forward with a plan and then you’re validating progress versus plan learning versus plan, you can decide, “Hey, should I continue double down or change?” But be explicit about that because I remember being a couple months before a series A or B and thinking, “Gosh, If I had just been more focused at the beginning, I would have saved a lot of time. Not that it would’ve been right, but just more focused.
Scott: Yeah, the plan and the focusing aspect of that is so … I agree 1000%. Now, in my world because I’m like a finance person, I tend to think plan and because I’m finance and accounting, I think financial model, budget to actuals, that kind of stuff, which we should maybe we can talk about, but what do you see as a board member or as an investor? Like that’s one aspect of the plan probably. But what are the other things you look at?
Anne: Yeah, well so it’s interesting because the plan I always think there should be a North star that you identify and again it’s subject to change without notice, but you’re constantly learning versus that plan. I love this Miles Davis quote, which is, “When you make a mistake, when you’re playing music, it’s actually the next note that determines whether it was in fact a mistake.” I think that is a very valuable lesson for entrepreneurs is that they are not really in control of many things, but when you are in control is your response to these stimuli that come in, right, and your ability to bob and weave. The only two advantages that a startup has really versus a big company because they don’t have more money, they don’t have more brands, they don’t have more teams, whatever, is the ability to learn fast and adapt.
Scott: And passion. Yeah. Even to put an example of that, like we had some HR issues 18 months ago and then that was the note that went bad and then we could have repeated the same mistakes. But we ended up investing a ton of money in systems and better communication and HR support and things like that. So we made that second note to use your analogy and everyone has the same problems, like whether it’s HR or maybe a technology problem or maybe a financing for whatever it is. I love how you said that, like it’s what you do next, it’s how you respond, which is what really matters in it.
Anne: I’ll just share one other anecdote, there was research done decades ago on luck and this researcher at a university, brings a bunch of students in and first he says, “I want you to say, are you a lucky person or an unlucky person?” And they mark it, okay? Then he hands them a newspaper and says, “I want you to page through the newspaper and count all the pictures. When you are done and you have the correct count come up and you’ll get $20,” and so people start and then all of a sudden a few people get right up and hand in their paper and leave. People are wondering, “Huh, what’s going on?” Well here’s what was happening. On page two of the newspaper was a big block of text that said you can stop counting pictures, bring the newspaper up and you’ll get $100. What’s interesting is that a much higher percentage of the people who categorize themselves as lucky actually read that big block of text because a lot of unlucky people were working very diligently to count pictures. I think there’s a bit of learning in there about how you continually find the opportunity in what’s in front of you.
Scott: That’s really great because you’re right and they’re more observant, more in tuned and they can be more flexible, especially for startups. Like you said, like you worked at some bigger companies coming to an IPO, but like when you’re a five-person team or a 10 person team, which it sounds like you’ve-
Anne: Yeah.
Scott: It’s all about where you focus your time and how you’re pivoting the company and or serving the customers that actually really care about you at that stage because not that many cares about you at that stage.
Anne: Correct. You have a lot to worry about. Like being a founder is really, really hard. But if you don’t free enough of your mind to continually revisit the big picture and continually scan the environment for opportunities and threats, I think you can, number one, you won’t enjoy the journey as much, but number two, you, you might not be as successful.
Scott: Yeah, that’s amazing advice. Going back, you made a reference to something which I think is important, the market can change on you. So, what may be like a seed level company now may not be a year from now and what’s series A. But the question that I get constantly is what does it take to raise a series A? And maybe you can answer that question in the context of this market and maybe tell a couple like war stories from like Military.com, or, but like, “Hey, the ball moves sometimes?” Right? Like what raises a series A now maybe couldn’t have raised a series A six years ago.
Anne: Yeah. The letters are a little bit misleading now and the bar is definitely going up. So as series A has gotten up and I think Mark at Para Ventures did a wonderful study of metrics for series A and things like that, which is worth Googling. If the average series A, I think is around $8 million in Silicon Valley, that is as big, and traditionally, so what I think about is usually you want to do some value hacking or something like that. You want to show that you’re creating more value and then you’re going to be able to capture a bunch of that, right? Like there’s a concept there, okay? Then you’re moving towards product, market fit and then growth. In one sense, just while there are benchmarks, like you need more than a million dollars of SaaS to raise series A and that’s ticking up to 1.5 or even two or whatever. The quality and the quantity of the relationships or the quality of that revenue matters a ton. So, while I think it’s good for founders to have some benchmarks, the best founders define for investors the opportunity and the reasons to believe. The reality is many companies have relatively small amounts of revenue today, even at series A, but what they’ve shown is engagement loops, opportunity, competition for differentiation. So, the most important thing in fundraising is to tell your story. You won’t match the hatch with every investor. Some will have preconceived notions about a market or whatever. But I think your opportunity, as a founder, to first build a good business and financing should be a byproduct of building a great business.
Scott: I love the phrase, defining a reason to believe is maybe the most eloquent way I’ve ever heard that put, can I steal that? I will credit you, I’ll footnote you in every conversation-
Anne: I did not invent that phrase.
Scott: No, but like people, sometimes I say like it’s kind of like we … I went to business school so people focus on the GMAT when you’re going to business school because there’s a quantitative number and so everyone cares what your score is. With raising a series A, I feel like people focus on the revenue number to their detriment sometimes like that million dollar, 1.5, whatever it is. But like what you said is so eloquent. Like the reason to believe in this company is they have incredibly high engagement or it’s completely viral or you’re serving a niche that’s never been served before and it’s going to be super lucrative. Like demonstrating that is really powerful.
Anne: I really think that no is the rational answer for, is this company a good investment? Because the odds are stacked against every company. So, it has to be. Yes, it is based in emotion and belief, in addition to rationality.
Scott: Yep. I love it. There’s another kind of an embedded story we can talk about. What you said was the letters are misleading nowadays, meaning series A, series B, series C and I think you and I probably kind of did this all at the same time in our careers. So what Village Global is now is probably what a series A fund used to be 10 or 15 years ago. Would you agree with that?
Anne: Yes.
Scott: Maybe, can you talk-
Anne: Yeah, so we were very comfortable being the first capital and definitely the first institutional capital of the founder. I was fortunate to work with Zinch folks like Aydin Senkut at Felicis, when he was a super angel and again, he’s been so fabulously successful and has continued to raise bigger funds over time. But yes, Village is very focused on that first inception and then trying to support entrepreneurs with an extended network so that they can, as I said, learn and grow faster, and our check sizes are usually $500,000 or less. What’s interesting today is you can do more with $500,000 then it was imaginable five or 10, or definitely 20 years ago.
Scott: Totally. So, like the reason why I made that analogy is it used to be you have to go down the Sandhill Road and you didn’t really have a lot to show and you needed a series A fund. The Mayfield, like Mayfield is a perfect example-
Anne: Yeah, $5 million series A check with a PowerPoint.
Scott: Or like I remember is being like two and a half or three and I’m like, “Hey, you’re on your way.” But, I think what’s been super powerful is that those funds have kind of moved up the stack and institutionalized and they’re almost like they’re more money managers these days and they were like pure VC back in the day. I don’t mean that derogatory word, they just have bigger fund sizes they write bigger checks because that’s what scales.
Anne: One of the reasons we like working with these network leaders, which is our term for scouts, is we think that when a founder is thinking about their next venture or their first venture, they don’t want to call an institutional investor, right? They want to call a friend, they want to call a founder who’s been there and done that and can help them, guide them on the journey. We don’t take board seats and our network leaders don’t take board seats because these companies are little and they don’t have boards, but our network leaders are in many ways sometimes like a board member. They’re the guide on the side helping you navigate this process and the foundational part of a company is so important to the trajectory of that company.
Scott: I have a lot of respect for funds like Village Global who are putting that first money because as you said, the default answer should be no. For almost every … Even like I sometimes I was still like Vanessa started Kruze Consulting she just did it, and like it’s, “Oh my gosh,” and so, but like you believe and you’re willing to put that time and you’re also willing to enable these network operators to do this is really impressive. To me, that’s the super hard work. I feel like, and again, I don’t mean this in a derogatory way, but like writing the big check once you have all the metrics spelled out in front of you, that’s less venture capital to me. Like, and again, I was raised 20 years ago on this stuff so-
Anne: Well I have respect for all stages and I think Sam Altman had a really nice quote, which he said, “Early stage we fund the dream and later stage you fund the DCF,” the discounted cash flows.
Scott: That’s actually a great way of saying it.
Anne: Believe me, we love big check writers-
Scott: Yeah, and you need them to survive. Like that’s totally, that’s how the cycle works.
Anne: The great news for founders today is there are more options for capital than ever before. So, whether that’s ClearBank and options for funding your marketing spend, whether that’s thinking about venture debt or other kinds of structures for your real estate or for your inventory. Chegg raised a lot of equity to buy $100 million of textbooks. Believe me, it’s hard to get venture returns on a bunch of books, even if you’re turning them. So Chegg very smartly figured out a way to put the ownership of the books in a different entity, in a partner organization, and then run a pure digital service organization, which frankly capital markets and public markets and late stage ventures likes a lot better.
Scott: What you’re saying is brilliant, so true, and I see that too. So, like maybe we can run through it real fast. So, it used to be back in the day you would raise-
Anne: Equity, yeah.
Scott: You guys raised 100 million, which is amazing, but maybe that five or 10 million, and the old days you had to buy all their server equipment, right? Then you started to be able to finance that server equipment with lenders, and now you can go to Amazon Web Services and just turn it on, there’s no cap back. So that’s one-way founders have saved a ton of money. You used the example of ClearBank, which is a company I know very well and I like them a lot. Maybe kind of explain how they fund the marketing spend just by an example.
Anne: Yes. So if you have a predictable marketing machine and just a caveat that lots of our companies do not use paid advertising because it can be arbitrage way, but if that’s your way to do customer acquisition instead of using equity financing, which is quite dear to finance that, you can go to ClearBank, share your metrics and they will effectively give you money with a little bit of a fee on top to run your marketing. Plus, by the way, I think you also get some benefits of their expertise and scale in doing marketing. I think the same might be if you’re renting space or something like that. If real estate as part of your startup is, or as we said you have inventory as part of your startup, there might be other ways to get capital that’s frankly cheaper. Especially today when interest rates are so low.
Scott: I totally agree. So, like we work as a kind of a solution for real estate because you’re signing a lease that’s that debt. Actually, people don’t think about that, but you are signing a lease and then for the stuff like textbooks, like venture debt, which is what I used to do, is a really good option. There’s also a new category led by like Lighter Capital and Bravo and some of these other folks who are just doing … And ClearBank kind of dips into that too. But who is doing … Like a traditional venture lender would do debt plus a little bit of warrants, a little bit of equity. These folks just do straight debt. It’s a little more expensive but you’re not giving up dilution in your company. So that kind of, I don’t think any of those folks could have written a $100 million check, but maybe a $10 million check for Chegg would have preserved, maybe 1% of the company or something like that. Relative to another venture lender, it preserved debt versus just equity, would preserve 10% of the company or 20%. But like a huge amount of dilution.
Anne: Correct. Yeah. This is why it’s actually helpful to have good investors on your cap table who can help explore these options. Because founders go through these transactions and think once in a while and investors think about this all the time and we’re talking to other people who have these things. So, it’s increasingly common at series A, if you have some of these kinds of businesses to open up a venture debt capacity. The reality is if you’ve just raised series A, it’s probably the cheapest time you can get money and things like that. Again, it’s not right for everyone, and having lived through tough economic times, debt can be very scary. But if you’re doing it in a very calculated and disciplined way, it can be really good.
Scott: Yeah. I would say raise as much equity as you need and then use the debt for extra. People run into trouble when they kind of try to replace debt because it’s not really … You need that cushion, debt’s providing the cushion, in my opinion.
Anne: Yes. I think one of the lessons I would tell my younger self is build the company and its capital structure as intentionally as you build the product. You can do that with the help of good investors because then, again, you do preserve equity for you and your employees, you preserve optionality if things do get tough, plus you can actually engineer a bigger company faster, if you’re smart.
Scott: And especially the founder, they’re the ones who suffered a dilution, almost always. Now, I don’t know if you know this, but we actually have a venture debt page where we cover all this stuff. So, type in Google, it’s going to be this thing, google is going to be big. Just typing K-R-U-Z-E venture debt, and you’ll learn more than you need to know about that debt.
Anne: Your website is very good for R&D tax credits and all that stuff too.
Scott: Thank you, thank you. Very nice. So, we got to wrap up here in a little bit, but we were talking off mic about … Because Chegg was this rocket ship company. I did a loan for a competitor of Cheggs that ended up … everyone tried really hard, just like didn’t do an IPO, but we were talking about some of the dynamics of competing with the big player in your market. Can you share a little bit of a war story on the Chegg post IPO and what that was like?
Anne: After the IPO in 2013. Amazon decided to launch textbook rental, which was square in the sights of Chegg. In eCommerce, you’re often benchmarking versus your competitors, and the algorithms at work can be very fast and responsive. So, if you want to match or beat your competitor by a penny, you can do that. The tricky part of that is that in a digital world you can race to the bottom pretty fast. So, when Amazon launched great PR, and all the financial models that as a company you build about, “Here’s what we’re going to sell or whatever,” go out the window and you make a choice as management team, and I remember late Sunday night call saying, “Are we going to continue to match and put profitability at risk? And if we don’t we’re going to probably have some big share losses,” because guess what? Students care about prices. We began a pretty well documented price war and-
Scott: That was not of your own causing.
Anne: No, no, no. And so good for students. They got some great textbook deals and this was way back years ago. But all of a sudden it stopped because we had engaged in aggressive price competition and it hurt everybody. In fact, in a future earnings statement, Amazon, which was also public, mentioned that there was severe competition in the textbook market. That was, I think there’s a legendary story that Amazon was very competitive with diapers.com and did something which is kind of a funny word in the diaper category, which is dumping, which means you price below your competitors and you force your competitors either out of business or just a lot of financial pain. Big players can do that, and this is the real rules of competition and sometimes consumers can win in all this stuff, but there are a few crucible moments as a manager, or management team, when you’re faced with these, if not bet the company decisions, it’s like pretty close to it. Then you just make the best decisions that you can at any one time. Then what I loved, this one worked out really fine, but Dan also taught me that, “You’ll never know the road not taken.” So, don’t ever regret a decision you make, but you might want to pivot from what you made. You can make a new decision but don’t ever regret it. That’s been super liberating for the rest of my life. So, I appreciate it.
Scott: Actually, it’s good advice for us too. That was such an inspirational story because you weathered the storm. I mean, and Amazon or Microsoft or Google or Apple, all the big companies are really … There’s been ebbs and flows in the valley where they weren’t very kind of savvy competitively, and now they are very savvy, and so pretty much any startup that you and I are working with is going to bump into one of them. So, having that, kind of being able to weather the storm and having that decision matrix that you had said, which is like take the road but don’t regret the road you don’t take, I think is really powerful.
Anne: Right. Then just set a point at which you will reevaluate the decision. And yeah, as it turns out, everybody did fine.
Scott: Well you’ve had an amazing career. Village Global, great fund. Please check them out. It’s been such a pleasure working with you and getting to know you. Maybe you can tell everyone just as a wrap up where they can find you, how to reach out, that kind of stuff.
Anne: Yes, villageglobal.vc, you can read about our fund. We’re at the seed stage and we’re at the formation stage with our accelerator, which can be done virtually from all around the world. So, lots of options for great founders and reach out to us. I’m on Twitter, I have a very small Twitter following.
Scott: Hopefully this podcast boosts that up. I won’t get you to the millions, but maybe we’ll add a few.
Anne: Thank you very much. Thanks for all you do for founders.
Scott: Oh, thank you. It’s such a pleasure. Thank you so much. Anne, before we go, quick shout out to Rippling, thank you again for sponsoring the podcast, and Anne, we’ll see you soon. Thank you.
Anne: Bye.
Singer: So, when your troubles are mounting in tax or accounting, you go to Kruze Founders and Friends. It’s Kruze Consulting. Founders and Friends with your host, Scotty Orn.

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