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With Scott Orn

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Scott Orn

Scott Orn, CFA

Rich Keen of Mind Candy on growing a digital media company for kids

Posted on: 02/05/2020

Rich Keen

Rich Keen

Chief Operating Officer - Mind Candy

Rich Keen of Mind Candy - Podcast Summary

Rich Keen, COO of Mind Candy, discusses building a world class-brand that combines apps, media, and celebrities. Rich also explains quite a bit about Moshlings, the characters that inhabit the brand.

Rich Keen of Mind Candy - Podcast Transcript

Singer: So, when your troubles are mounting in tax or accounting, you go to Kruze from Founders and Friends. It’s Kruze Consulting Founders and Friends with your host Scott Orn.
Scott: Hey, it’s Scott Orn at Kruze Consulting and today before we get to a great podcast with Rich Keen of Mind Candy, quick shout out to our sponsor, Rippling. Rippling is the payroll provider for startups. They do payroll, they do HR, they help you hire people, they help coordinate your broker for benefits. They also integrate into your IT stack to make it really easy to spin up new employees and the new employee’s computer. So, the new employee comes and they can log right into all their web services and access their computer on day one. That’s really cool and a really nice signal for that new employee that they really matter. And you know, we did a study at Kruze and we actually spend three hours setting up each new employee’s computer, which equates to about $420 bucks. So, with Rippling you get your money’s worth. It’s a great service. Definitely check it out. And now let’s introduce Rich Keen of Mind Candy. He’s the COO. Welcome Rich.
Rich: Hey, Scott. Thanks for having me on. Great to be here.
Scott: My pleasure. So, this came about because Rich is the COO of Mind Candy, which makes the most popular app in the Orn household, Moshi. Is it Moshi night stories or what’s the app called?
Rich: It’s Moshi Twilight Sleep Stories.
Scott: And my daughter-
Rich: But a lot of people just say Moshi.
Scott: I call it Moshi. Yeah. My daughter does not go to sleep without Moshi. It is the single most important thing in our bedtime routine. And so, I was sitting there a couple of nights ago listening to another Moshi story and I was like, “I got to see if Rich could be on the podcast.” So, thank you for making time to come on.
Rich: My pleasure.
Scott: Well maybe you can retrace your career a little bit Rich and give people some context and how you ended up at Mind Candy. And then maybe tell the story of Mind Candy a little bit too.
Rich: Yeah, sure. Yeah. How did I end up at a company creating stories to help millions of kids fall asleep? And I suppose you don’t leave university or college and think, okay, that’s my destination. I actually started out in the music industry 25 years ago, in PR and marketing, and kind of went through that into holistic events. So, I ended up launching an event called the Mind Body Spirit Festival and supporting the growth of that here in the UK, which really was quite an early event in building on the growing mindfulness and meditation revolution that’s really taken hold the last five, 10 years. So, this was 15 years ago. So, I was really kind of exposed to lots of interesting alternative health practices and really incredible people doing amazing stuff in that space. From there into the games industry for about 10 years. So, took my media and marketing PR experience into that industry. Ended up working for one of the biggest global games’ networks called IGN. So, and then led the publishing over there and then went to Sony PlayStation for four years in the UK to lead the marketing team. And the move to Mind Candy really came from the MD at IGN at the time who I worked really closely with who then came here to Mind Candy be CEO. Chap named Ian Chambers.
Scott: Oh no way.
Rich: So, Ian joined Mind Candy four years ago. And a couple of years ago we were talking a lot about how Mind Candy was going and Mind Candy had always been a business that I’d respected from way back in the day, I’ll talk about the history of Mind Candy in a sec. So, the opportunity came to join the team here a couple of years ago with some really exciting projects. One of them was Moshi Twilight and I saw it as a great chance to be part of something that was moving back into mindfulness and well-being. Something I’ve been always very keen to explore more and promote more at a very important time in society when everyone is anxious over stressed, either saturated with screens and information. But also, being a father, parent of a young daughter, I think the idea of working on an IP that kids love was something that really appealed to me. So, I joined the team here two years ago and that’s really at the end of quite a big transition for Mind Candy. Mind Candy is over 10-year-old, I mean we’re really one of the first really successful startups in old street, the Silicon roundabout era, with our flagship brand IP, which is Moshi, which at the time was a web game called Moshi Monsters. And Moshi, well, it’s a world with 250 incredible characters all created from the unbelievably talented creative team, they’re still here today. And in the last 10 years Moshi has been, there’s been a movie, a top 10 selling music album. Over the last 10 years, over 100 million kids have enjoyed and played and listened and interacted with the world of Moshi in some way.
Scott: Wow. I can’t believe that. That’s huge reach. That’s really amazing.
Rich: It’s incredible. I mean it really was the first digital experience that parents were comfortable letting their kids roam and play in and it was a closed, very safe social environment where they could meet their friends through the world of Moshi. And the evolution of our businesses has, in some ways, being led by the evolution of that product. So, 10 years ago that was all on the web as a flash-based game. But obviously in the last 10 years kids have moved from desktop and laptop onto tablet and mobile. So as that product had to shift out of that format, we’ve been looking for new ways of bringing the world of Moshi to life on mobile in a way that’s going to reach and excite and engage a new generation of kids and parents. And that’s where Moshi Twilight comes in. I said a couple of years ago, off the back of our own efforts, trying to get our kids to sleep and also a very close relationship with our chairman, a chap named Michael Acton Smith, who’s also CEO of Calm.
Scott: Oh, I didn’t know that. Calm’s one of our clients. That’s amazing.
Rich: Oh yeah. Yeah. So, Michael founded Mind Candy. He’s the original founder of the company.
Scott: No way. Are you kidding me? That’s so funny. What a small world.
Rich: Yeah. So, Michael stepped aside as CEO four years ago for Ian to join. He’s still chairs of the board, but obviously spends most of his time [posted] on Calm. But also, the relationship there, Moshi Twilight Sleep Stories, is really bringing the concept of what Calm is, which is beautifully calming, relaxing stories to help people sleep, re-imagining that concept for kids. And then using the characters from the world of Moshi. Using these incredible characters in this world to get kids interested in the idea of bedtime, which is half the battle. Getting kids to even think about being in the bedroom is half the struggle sometimes. So, it’s been a really exciting couple of years and we’ve got quite a roller coaster ahead of us. It’s really exploding. In fact, Scott, when you meet people who use the app who come to you and tell you their stories of how it’s transformed their bedtime and help their kids sleep and given them more time in the evenings. It why we do what we do. So, I was interested to hear from you I suppose maybe as you are to hear from me.
Scott: Yeah, well, you’re kind of like the Rolling Stones for young parents like, in the sense that I can’t believe I’m actually talking to you because we interact with the app and the stories every single night. And our daughter, we have a young daughter and so we do go through, we were joking before turning the mics on that you remember those times too where it’s a little rough getting her to go to bed sometimes. And so, a big part of our night routine is just to get her into the bedroom and then we have an Apple, I forget what those things are called but it’s like an Amazon Echo and we stream Moshi Twilight, one of the stories, over the Apple and it just plays in the room. And it’s one of those things where it’s kind of like sets the mood for her and gets her going in the right direction mentally and emotionally that it’s time to go to bed. And it’s soothing for us too. My wife and I actually like to listen to them. The stories are really cool and we’ll get into it a little bit later, but you actually have some really famous celebrity voices now doing the readings and doing the stories and so it’s really fun to listen to it. And so, as we’re, this is super, super cheesy, but as we’re changing the diaper and getting her into the pajamas and turning the lights down and reading her a book and all this kind of stuff, we’re listening to Moshi in the background. And I think she finds it really soothing because when the lights go down and we usually sit in the room for a few minutes and sit on the couch and just let her calm down and that’s what she’s hearing. She’s hearing the soothing voices of Goldie Hawn or some of your other storytellers and it works. It totally works. It’s really changed things for us for the better. And so, I’m grateful. I know my wife’s grateful and I’m sure there’s a million parents out there who’ve gone through this process every single night that are grateful that Moshi Twilight exists.
Rich: Well, it’s great to hear. And, I’m sure there are many of your listeners who are parents who at sometime or other, have been in that moment in the bedroom where you’ve been in the child’s room for maybe an hour, you’ve read stories, you’ve tucked them in, you kissed them goodnight, you turn the light off, you try to creep out of the room, but then sing a story, ready another story. And for a lot of people spending time with your children is so important and that moment of reading stories with their child at night is a vital part of your bond and your relationship with them. But where we come in is that moment after you’ve read the story when you want to turn the lights out and it is time for your child to sleep. And sleep is so important for all aspects of health and well-being. And a lot of parents struggle to get out. And in some ways that dynamic, which can become very stressful for both parent and child can actually have very negative effects on the well-being of the whole family. So, we wanted to create something that smooths that entire transition. And as you said, part of that is actually getting kids interested in being in bed in the first place. Making bedtime something that can be interesting and fun rather than something that can be a battle for everyone.
Scott: That’s really smart. I never thought about that. Like actually making it a fun or interesting event for them. And that actually is what Moshi is doing for my daughter. That’s actually brilliant. I really love that.
Rich: Yeah, no, I suppose the way we look at it is if we can get kids to engage with something without stimulating them, which is where the app comes in. I mean it’s audio only, so obviously the app is used on a device with a screen so you can select the story, but once that’s done, I think commonly people will, as you do Scott, AirPlay or whatever you need to do to a Bluetooth speaker or the phone screen is locked. It’s put on a shelf out of reach and the audio just fills the room. So, children don’t need to look at screens. They can curl up, close their eyes and let their imaginations calm them and drift them into very gentle sleep. And the content, our chief creative Steve who is a BAFTA award winning creative, who created the entire world of Moshi from day one, he leads a team and they create the stories set to music. We release new stories every week and they are absolutely stunning. I mean they are beautiful whimsical journeys with singing and language that parents love. As you mentioned, you are listening to them. We don’t dumb down the stories to talk down to kids. We actually use interesting vibrant, complex language that everyone enjoys. Kids enjoy listening to it. It helps their language development and parents enjoy it. And it’s really magical. The reason we’re so grateful to have conversations like this is because when you hear from the people whose lives you are helping and affecting and we get so many reviews on the Google Play store and the App store and the Amazon stores. On average, [inaudible] 4.7 out of five you have 20,000 plus reviews.
Scott: Wow.
Rich: Just the outpouring of positivity similar to your story. You know, bedtime used to be a huge battle. It used to take us two, three hours, get my child to sleep, but now my child is asleep in half an hour and my relationship with my partner has completely changed and my child is performing better at school because they’re getting more sleep. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. So, it’s great to hear and it’s really positive affirmation that we should carry on doing what we do.
Scott: Yeah. Yeah, definitely. And, there’s a couple of things you said there where I really like the aspect that I can do it over the AirPod and do airplay because I don’t want my kid looking at a screen when they’re trying to fall asleep because of all the blue light and all those studies that say it makes it hard to fall asleep. And I’m even such a dork, I wear those blue light glasses at night when I’m reading on my iPod to shield myself. So, I definitely don’t want her doing that and one of the nice things about the app or the experience is, it was super easy for us to try. I think Vanessa, my wife, read about it on a blog, like a kid’s blog, and so we just tried it that night. For those who are just listening to us, it’s spelled M-O-S-H-I. Just type that into iTunes or whatever App store, super easy to download. And then there’s a couple of free stories. It’s not like a huge pressure. You just try it out. And we did a couple of them and we could see the immediate response that our daughter was having. And so, we subscribed. It’s a super affordable subscription price. So, it’s not like, the cool thing about it is, it’s very family friendly and it’s not so expensive that it’s going to prohibit people from doing it. And I can say now that we use it every night, the dollar per usage is insane, insanely good. But the whole app experience and the art in the app is really nice too. So, I’m just a huge fan and it’s just so darn easy. So, if you’re listening to this, just try it out. If you’re a young parent it’ll really make things a lot easier and better. So, check it out. Rich, maybe talk a little bit about the characters in Moshi and maybe a few specific ones, but also how they are, how they’re oriented, a little bit of the art around it because it’s a really kind of, they’re just their own world and so it’s fun to hear each character got their own story. There’s a jazz guy who plays musical instruments and we listen to that one a lot, but maybe give the audience a little flavor for the character depth.
Rich: Of course. I suppose the benefit of getting a business with 10 years of product development behind you is, the world of Moshi has, we’ve translated all of it back into Moshi Twilight. So, the world of Moshi, it’s 250 characters, the moshlings we call them, each with their own incredible back story and traits and unique personalities in a way that kids love exploring. The depth of the characters as well as the breadth of them is really stunning and they’re beautifully illustrated and creative. The art style is as you expect, very vibrant animations. But the moshlings themselves are quite small cute little characters, their arms and their limbs are a little bit more bunched up with really exciting expressions and characteristics that really appeal to children. And that’s always been the magic of Moshi is the quality of the characters and the world. So, with Moshi Twilight we write stories around individual characters for each story. So, each story will be focused on one character and each character during our story will go on a different journey to explore the world of Moshi and maybe try and solve something that is linked to some of the themes that we try and cover. Mindfulness, gratitude, thinking positively, making friends. We also cover subjects that we know are a big cause of anxiety for kids. Things like difficult relationships with friends and going back to school. We’re very conscious that with kids listening we want to try and support positive emotional well-being and mental well-being by helping kids listen to language and stories that give them a sense of hope for issues that they might be having. Beyond just the entire world of Moshi for the app itself, we’ve also developed four specific characters, called the Sleepy’s who have never existed in any other Moshi world but also sit within our [inaudible] characters, and then in some ways are sleepy heroes. They’re in many ways the lead moshlings. Our first ever story was a story called Close Your Eyes SleepyPaws, which is all SleepyPaws. He’s a very snoozy koala who spends his 20-25 minutes journey through the sleep story trying to get himself to sleep and in doing he explores the world of Moshi, meets some other interesting characters like there’s Nodkins the bunny, and professor Feathersnooze, who’s a very wise old owl who knows all there is to do with sleep and well-being. So we use the characters and we use the really charming world to talk to things that are important to help kids understand how to think more positively about life and how to relax and unwind. And really that’s where you mentioned Goldie earlier, the Goldie story is really a great example of that. It’s currently free in the app, so you can download the app tonight and you can listen to Goldie Hawn’s soothing tone. She has an incredible voice. And that’s really all-around helping kids understand the power of the mind and the importance of relaxing your mind. She’s got her own philanthropic work and her own foundation work called MindUP, which is all around teaching kids mindfulness and meditation. And it’s a great example where, through the relationship that we had, we spoke to Goldie and instantly there was a connection and a willingness to work together because she’s very passionate about the importance of helping kids develop more robust strategies for coping with anxiety and stress, meditation being one of them. And we felt that writing a story about Goldie, we created a character called Goldie the Mindful moshling, So, in some ways she hasn’t just narrated a story. It’s not just a voice over. We’ve actually created a character based on her that lives in the world. And the story’s about Goldie going through the world of Moshi learning how to relax and unwind. And in doing so talk to some of the benefits of meditation and the areas that she’s very passionate about. So, we feel we’re really unique in that we can do that. We can link the IP and the characters to really important messages in a way that it’s done in a very subtle way that kids love and parents love because it means that children are fast asleep and happy.
Scott: And you talked about Goldie, that is by far the one we listen to the most. And I mean Goldie Hawn is a mother and she may even be a grandmother now and so she has this really soothing voice. I’m a father and I love being a father, but mothers have a certain tone in their voice when they’re reading a bedtime story or talking to children and kids really resonate with that and you can hear it. And so, it’s just really fun to hear her telling a story in her mother or grandmother voice. And I don’t want to sleep on SleepyPaws either because SleepyPaws was the one that got us into it. He is the cutest little koala and we listen to SleepyPaws quite a bit too sometimes when Goldie is done and we need to roll one more because our daughter isn’t quite asleep, we’ll turn on SleepyPaws. And it was a really nice intro into the app and to the Twilight stories for us. I don’t want to steal your thunder but you have another big-time celebrity voice doing something there. And that sounds like that’s part of what you’re going to be doing going forward.
Rich: Yeah. Well I mean Patrick Stewart recently wrote a story for us. Patrick Stewart is a legend. Personally, having grown up watching Star Trek and obviously X-Men, he is a Shakespearian legend too. And his voice is so incredible. Again, he’s someone who I think really connected with us and that we felt was a really good fit. And his story is about Patrick the Performing Moshling all about, in some ways about him. We’ve written a story that kind of covers his life and his story, Patrick the Performing moshling, he can’t sleep because he’s constantly thinking about all the different performances that he’s done over the years and all the things keeping him awake at night as he retraces his career. So, it’s a chance for us to kind of do a retrospective of his career. We’ve got odes to Star Trek in there and X-Men and just really funny little whimsical traits from those franchises that we think parents will love. But I’d also say, I talk about the positive messages and meditation and this, but at the end of the day, kids just love listening to the stories because the characters are so powerful and so compelling to them. And it’s fun. It’s a fun way for kids to be left alone, to fall asleep with a small night-light on, or in the dark and feel safe, feel soothed and let their imagination direct in a way that makes them feel comfortable. We work with sleep experts. We are content creators. We’re not physicians, but we work very closely with physicians here in the UK and in the US, especially with regard understanding the process of sleep and how long to create our stories for, what features to add to the phone to support positive bedtime routines. And one of the bits of feedback that we’ve had is that the power of the imagination at bedtime is a really important part of how children can develop a sense of safety. When children let their imagination drift and it disconnects them from a lot of the negative thoughts and feelings and worries and anxieties that normally would make them want their parents to stay behind. By firing and feeling the imagination of kids through these stories that natural sense of safety and comfort naturally leads to sleep. And especially when the stories themselves, which you know, they don’t have a big rise and fall in narrative. They are journeys really from A to B over 25 minutes. There’s no big plot rise. There’s no tune in next week to find out what happened to SleepyPaws. It’s all about very soft, calming storytelling. But in many ways many children don’t get to the end. Our goal is to make kids fall asleep before the story’s over. Which is, for Steve and the team who create the stories every week, in some ways they’re creating masterpieces every week that will probably never be finished through to the end and heard or listened to the end. It’s an incredible creative talent.
Scott: Well I have a confession for you. I have a confession because sometimes after my daughter’s asleep I still sit in her room and listen to the story because it’s so relaxing. So at least the adults are going to hear the whole thing, which is pretty cool. You know there’s one thing we talked about before we turned the mics on which was, there’s a real kind of social impact aspect of this and you talked about meditation and calming and calming anxiety and getting away in society right now. But there’s some specific type of folks who are battling things that really resonate with Moshi, right? You want to talk about that?
Rich: When we started seeing a lot of the reviews coming in and the emails and the contact and focus groups, one thing that became quite clear is that a lot of parents who have children with additional needs, neurological diverse conditions like autism and ADHD, and quite consistently we found that parents of kids with those conditions respond incredibly well. I think you’ve got very busy overactive minds who really struggle at times when they need to be left alone or when routines aren’t consistent, when bedtime routines are disrupted. And if you’ve got a child who struggles at bedtime that’s exacerbated by neurological diverse conditions like that, then in some ways bedtime becomes a really negative spiral. And so, introducing something like this, which is very calming, very consistent, it’s auditory, which I think we found is very effective, it can really help to create consistency and routine. But also, the nature of the stories means that kids go to sleep. So, children that are maybe overly active during the day subject to more anxiety and more stress and more pressure because of those kinds of conditions, this really becomes a very powerful tonic to try and break that cycle. We talk very closely with the experts that consult with us on the app and what we hear from the sleep community is that regardless of ADHD and autism and diagnosed conditions, that a genuine anxiety amongst children is on the rise. There’s a lot more pressure in the day to day lives of kids exacerbated by more screens, society generally, as you said, you mentioned calm, the rise of calm has been a really clear indication that the pressures of society are increasing anxiety across the board. So, if parents are stressed, kids are stressed. Being able to help family that really need help, who need it most, as well as families who just want something to relax their child and take the edge off when they need it. When they need something for their kids to listen to and drift away too. Even if they have a normal bedtime routine, something like Moshi Twilight can be really powerful for them. And yeah, you mentioned costs and subscription. The majority of our users will use the app for free. And for us that’s great. We want to help putting people to sleep, but at the end of the day, the subscription I think is pretty [inaudible] It’s $30-$40 in the US. For the price of a cup of coffee a week, maybe a couple of cups of coffee a week, you’ve got something that you can turn on when you need it, wherever you are. And so, what could be quite a stressful evening and buy back some time for you and have your kids fall asleep naturally the way it’s going to make them happier and hopefully more rested and healthier. So yeah, we feel very proud really, and privileged to be able to be in this position to do that. And it’s just great to hear from people that they work.
Scott: Yeah. And I totally agree. There’s something you said about the cycle, and I didn’t really realize this until I was parent, but sometimes when the kids are overly tired or maybe they have additional needs like ADHD or autism, they get caught in a downward cycle because they’re so amped up or have a hard time sleeping that they wake up the next morning and they’re not fully rested and it starts that cycle again and it can really cascade. And so I think one of the most powerful things about Moshi for our family is that it gets our daughter on that positive upswing cycle where she does relax, she does go to sleep, she gets a full night’s sleep, she wakes up rested, and then the next day is started on a good foot, on a optimistic, happy foot instead of, oh my gosh, she’s so tired and we can see the circles under her eyes and we know she’s going to be short tempered and there’s not a lot of… A short tempered two-year-old can really do some damage, so you got to kind of watch out. So, it’s just really nice to get things going in the right direction and it does build on it. Just like adults, if you go a couple of nights without the amount of sleep you need, you’re going to be hurting and you might snap a little bit. And so, kids are the same way. And so, we can really tell and it works and I highly recommend it and I’m glad you guys make it available for free because that makes it super accessible for maybe people who those dollars mean a lot to, or they can just try it. But I would encourage people to subscribe because that allows for more content to be created and also just rewards the company who’s helping all of our kids fall asleep. It’s really cool. Well, this has just been fantastic Rich, and I can’t wait until my daughter is aware enough to listen to the podcast so she knows that I was cool enough to talk to the folks who create Moshi. Do you want to just kind of tell everyone where they can find Moshi and, or maybe reach out and how to get access to the app and the sleep stories?
Rich: Well, first off, thank you so much for having me on. It’s really great to be able to talk and tell our story, which we feel very passionate about and I hope does kind of crossed to everyone listening.
Scott: I can definitely tell the passion that comes across and I’m sure the audience will. And I also think there’s a nice, I can tell you feel lucky to do it. There’s like that kind of vibe, which is really cool. You know how this can impact people’s lives and you have your own children and so anyways, it comes across very clearly.
Rich: Well thank you. To do something that you know is having an incredibly positive impact on the world as well as something you feel passionate about and you enjoy, and actually you use at home and you see your own family benefiting from it, it’s really good. It’s a great position to be in. We feel very grateful. So yeah, the app is available on the App store and Google Play and Amazon stores. Yeah, I think as you said earlier, if you just search Moshi, Moshi sleep, you’ll find us. It’s available on Android and iOS. It’s free to download. We have an hour of content for free, two stories, a meditation, music, sounds, whatever you think is best for your child, short trial of them, and see what works. But yeah, if you choose to go deeper, you can take a free trial. So again, you can get a seven-day free trial, which you can cancel at any time to try out all the content and if you love it, stay with us and that would be great. We’re also available on an Alexa and Google Assistant. We were a part of their child directed skills launch last year where they worked with a couple of developers to create content to build actions and skills aimed at kids. So, if you have a Assistant native device or an Alexa device, just say, “Hey Google open Moshi” or “Moshi Twilight.” or “Alexa, ask Moshi Twilight to play me a sleep story” or “Open Moshi Twilight” and you’ll be able to find us there. We’ve even got content on YouTube and Spotify. Our goal is to get content out in as many ways as possible to help as many people, families fall asleep. If you’ve got any thoughts, we’d love to hear from you. You can contact our CS team through the app or if anyone’s got anything they’d love to share on their experience or anything, then they can just get in touch with me, it’s Rich@mindcandy.com. We’d love to hear from any of your listeners who have thoughts on what we’re doing or ideas or if they use it. [inaudible] and feel very much that the way we build our app is based on feedback and the more we learn, the better we can craft what we do to make that better for everyone.
Scott: I love it. I love it. I highly recommend Moshi. It’s changed our nighttime routine. It’s also just fun to listen to as an adult. Rich, thank you so much for coming by and talking about Moshi. Thanks also to Rippling for being a sponsor. Also, one thing I forgot to mention is please give us reviews on iTunes, when you listen to the podcast. If you do a review, good or bad, we’ll send you a Kruze Consulting tee shirt. So, check that out. I’ll check out the reviews and make sure that we’re getting people tee shirts. And Rich, thanks again, just a fantastic app. Please give my best to the whole creative team and everyone that makes Moshi work and we’ll be listening to it again tonight when we go to bed.
Rich: Amazing. We’ll be sure to do that.
Scott: Awesome.
Rich: Thank you Scott.
Scott: Thank you sir. Appreciate it.
Singer: So, when your troubles are mounting in tax or accounting, you go to Kruze from Founders and Friends. It’s Kruze Consulting Founders and Friends with your host Scott Orn.

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