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Posted on: 12/07/2020

Mark Loranger of Braavo, provider of on-demand funding for mobile apps and games

Kruze Consulting's Founders and Friends Podcast · Mark Loranger of Braavo, provider of on-demand funding for mobile apps and games

Mark Loranger

Mark Loranger

Co-founder - Braavo


Mark Loranger of Braavo - Podcast Summary

Mark Loranger talks about founding Braavo, a leader in on-demand funding for mobile apps and games. Braavo’s Revenue-based funding allows founders to scale on their own terms, without giving up equity.

Mark Loranger of Braavo - Podcast Transcript

Scott: Hey, it’s Scott Orn at Kruze Consulting and welcome to another episode of Founders and Friends. And before we start the podcast, let’s give a quick shout out to Rippling. Rippling is the new cool payroll tool that we see a lot of startups using. Rippling is great for your traditional HR and payroll. They integrate very nicely, but guess what? They did another thing. They integrate into your IT infrastructure. They make it really easy for when you hire someone to spin up all the web services in their computer, which sounds kind of like not a huge deal, but actually we did the study at Kruze. We spent $420 on average, just getting a new employee’s computer up and running and their web servers up and running. It’s actually a really big deal. It saves a lot of money, and the dogs are in the Dogwood. We see a lot of startups coming in the Kruze now using Rippling, so please check out Rippling. Great service, we love it, I think we have a podcast with Parker Conrad, you can hear it from his own words, but we’re seeing them take market share. So, shout out to Rippling, and now to another awesome podcast at Kruze Consulting’s Founder and Friends. Thanks.
Singer: (Singing). It’s Kruze Consulting, Founders and Friends with your host, Scotty Orn.
Scott: Welcome to Founders and Friends podcast with Scott Orn at Kruze Consulting, and today my very special guest is Mark Loranger of Braavo. Welcome Mark.
Mark: Thanks. Thanks for having me Scott, I’m looking forward to our conversation.
Scott: Yeah. So, we’ve known each other for a couple of years. I’ve known about Braavo for a couple of years, and you’ve worked with some of the Kruze clients, and that’s why I wanted to have you on. But maybe you can kind of tell the audience, retrace your career a little bit and tell them how you found Braavo.
Mark: Sure. Yeah. I mean, I suppose with all the gray hair I have, it’s a long story. I’ll try to make it short. I went-
Scott: You look so young. Since I don’t have video, you look great. You don’t have to worry about your gray hair.
Mark: There we go. I shouldn’t have said that. Yeah, I just got out of college, serial founder and a couple of big exits that are about … No, I’m kidding. So, I went to undergrad for engineering. I was mechanical engineering undergrad. I went to school for business right after that because I didn’t see myself as a practicing engineer. I sort of had a different vision for my career path, but the vision wasn’t very clear. And my first job out of grad school was actually working at MIT in the technology licensing office. So, universities across the country, research institutions, they get a lot of money from the government to develop basic research. And some of that basic research becomes inventions that can be commercialized. And so, my first exposure to the startup world was actually in real, sort of hard technology startups. Startups that were coming out of MIT that were licensing intellectual property and raising a bunch of equity and then trying to build a business. And what was really interesting about that at the time was it was obvious that if you were building a technology company from research coming out of MIT, it might take 10 years to get something from the bench into the hands of consumers, end users, doctors, whatever those technologies may be, whether it’s display technology for screens or whether it’s the next biomedical device for people that have a handicap, it takes 10 plus years. And so, it was very obvious to me at the time, like, “Wow, venture capital is really powerful way to get money into a business, to create some sort of monopoly around intellectual property and technology, and then at some point in the future, you might make some money.” And so that was my first exposure to startups, but also to technology commercialization. That stuck with me because one of the things that we did at MIT was we created royalty agreements. And so, the way you license intellectual property is you create a royalty agreement, and so if that technology ever becomes commercialized, you get some royalty. Some sort of show of revenue as a result of that product being commercialized, but that’s way in the future. And the reason I sort of give that broad background about that is because it actually ties into what I’m doing right now in a really interesting way. From MIT, I worked in a couple of other places, one of which was Square 1 Bank. At the time it was called Square 1 Bank, was a competitor of Silicon Valley Bank. I ran the early stage practice there, so I got some exposure to sort of banking finance, venture debt, venture financing, which is quite different, a different part of the ecosystem, but also an important one. They compete with SVB, for people that aren’t familiar with them. They’re now called Pacific Western Bank. From there, I joined my first startup, which was actually one of my clients when I was at Square 1 Bank. I joined one of my client companies as chief operating officer. That company was called Updater. We did software for people who were moving, helping them update accounts and records, selling into-
Scott: Oh, I just moved. We probably used their software.
Mark: It’s possible. Yeah. So, we originally went direct to consumer, but what’s interesting about that businesses is it was obvious, timing is really critical and being able to get your product, your technology in front of the hands of people when they’re moving at the right time necessitated us going through other channels. So, we built partnerships with realtors, real estate industry partners, and things like that. From there, I met my co-founder about five years ago, my current co-founder at Braavo, His name is Sergei Kovalenko, and he and I sort of noodled on this idea for a bit that sort of for me, tied together a lot of my background, seeing different ways of financing technology companies, but also solidifying part of a hypothesis that I had at the time. And that Sergei my co-founder also had coming from a very different perspective, which was the world of technology development and startups has changed a lot in the past 10, 15, 20 years. And with these really powerful distribution platforms, and the app stores really are fundamentally this technology distribution platform and this product distribution platform, the development of these platforms makes it quite easy, comparatively speaking, to get a product into the hands of end users. To build, develop, distribute, monetize a product, however, it’s really, really hard to scale that. And oftentimes the channels through which you’re scaling are very costly. And so, the pain points of funding and growing a business from a [inaudible] technology business today, particularly in the app world or eCommerce for example, are very different than what venture capital as an asset class was created to solve. Venture capital an asset class is created to help companies commercialize real technology over many, many years well in advance with the ability to get it in the hands of customers, to actually sell it. And so, you have to invest in creating this massive sort of, I would say, a monopoly of sorts and that’s very, very costly just to begin to monetize.
Scott: It’s the MIT spin out use case. That’s what all venture capital used to fund back when-
Mark: Exactly.
Scott: And also, it’s gotten so much cheaper to build a product and easier to build a product that … When I was doing venture, I worked at Lighthouse Capital, one of the competitors of Square 1. And very few people would ever be able to raise money, but if they did, they’d raised like $5 million series A. This is before angels and seed funds were very active. And so, you either got the money you didn’t, and once you got the money, you built your product. Now it’s totally different. You build your product to get the money, or do get more money.
Mark: Exactly.
Scott: So, everything has changed.
Mark: Right. And the other thing was again, for these more traditional technology companies, like hardcore technology, you’d raise $5 million to take it a little bit further beyond sort of the research phase to some sort of a inflection point in like, “Wow, we can build this a little bit faster and a little bit cheaper, and we can see how this could be used in the future for a product.” And then you raise another round and you’re still not generating revenue, right? Revenue is just like this pie in the sky that it’s going to take forever to get to. And now it’s just, that’s not the case, particularly in software, which is essentially like apps, games, they’re software businesses at a fundamental level. You can distribute those much, much quicker. You can build much cheaper, just even something as simple as, it seems so simple now, but AWS, companies had the build their own servers, physical infrastructure. And that was expensive by the way, and so-
Scott: Yeah. We used to finance a lot of servers at Lighthouse in the early, early days. It was crazy.
Mark: So, anyway, sort of the long-winded story is that each step of my career, I was sort of in the world of startups in one way or another observing how they were launched, how they grew, how founders capitalize their businesses, different types of funding, whether it’s equity, debt, non-dilutive sort of you name it, royalty-based funding, for example. And when I met my co-founder, he had this idea that like, “God, when you have access to all this data,” He came from sort of an engineering perspective, but also as an angel investor. He said, “If you have all this data, you could build some sort of a credit score for these businesses in real time. And if you can build a credit score, that means you can understand risk. And if you can understand risk, you can price risk. And if you can price risk, well, you can probably do it a lot cheaper than equity investors because they can’t price risk. So, they just try to take a huge chunk of the company, right?” And so, it’s a really interesting logical sequence that he was going through from a different perspective that he had. And I was like, “Well, how do we productize this? How do we make this sort of work with the systems that we’re building around,” And we came together with Braavo about five years ago, and we’ve been building this business ever since, both of us being technologists first and sort of finance sort of people second. We’ve always leaned more into the technology and the products side of the business in terms of where we love and where our passion lies, and so we built software to enable financial products that we think are the right products for businesses in this technology space and in these verticals in which we’re operating.
Scott: That’s really amazing. It’s a great story. And for people who don’t know, your venture debt experience at Square 1, the venture debt was kind of an iteration in the same way that venture equity isn’t a great fit for a lot of companies, venture debt isn’t a great fit either. And you’ve kind of fine-tuned it. I have a lot of respect for what you built because you’ve taken a pretty chunky part of the market and said, “We can build a custom solution for you people.” I think they’re really other cool thing is the app store has really democratized software sales or game sales, and so the long tail of all these games and apps is just humongous.
Mark: Right.
Scott: So, you guys have a pretty big market opportunity where maybe a traditional VC would have looked at it five years ago and not saw that how big it was. Does that make sense?
Mark: Absolutely. Yeah. No, for sure. So, I mean, it’s like a $300 billion market worldwide. App developers, mobile apps and mobile game developers, $300 billion worldwide between app store revenue and ad revenue. And there is a massive long tail and the challenge with any sort of funding for long tail, whether it’s non-diluted, whether it’s bank financing or VC is it’s impossible to identify those businesses scalable, but also the transaction costs are generally very high when you’re doing manual diligence. When you’re doing things manually, the transaction costs are very high. So, whether it’s equity or venture debt or bank finance, those types of businesses have been built around a belief that they have some unique insight in the way they analyze things. But it gets down to a human level of analysis and due diligence. And you just can’t service smaller businesses with traditional types of funding doing human due diligence. The transaction costs are too high. And so, you have to build massive automation, and that’s really again, where we approached solving this problem was to start first with as much automation as possible, and then say, “Well, okay, now we can service the long tail. Who else needs these types of products?” And in fact, as we’ve proven, our platform is incredibly scalable for companies regardless of stage. And so, when you say the VCs fit a certain segment of the market, or venture debt might be the right fit for a certain section of the market, and our smallest customers are doing as little as $10,000 a month in revenue, and our largest customers are doing three or four or $5 million a month in revenue.
Scott: Wow. That’s amazing.
Mark: So, it’s a really, really massive market opportunity in terms of these types of uniquely structured products for a very, very specific set of verticals, they meet the needs of companies at every stage of their growth. And every stage of the growth might include raising equity at some point in time. But rather than having to raise $10 million, maybe they raise five. And maybe they sell half as much of their company they otherwise would, and all of that equity is going into building enterprise value. They’re raising equity, not just for spending money on marketing, but they’re raising money purely to build enterprise value technology, product, people. And they can use Braavo Complementary funding to sort of extend their runway. But in the same notion, many of our customers never raise equity, never need to raise equity, never want to raise equity. And so, there’s many different definitions of success for our customers, and it really depends on what the entrepreneur wants to accomplish. We see different sort of visions for success in the different geographies in which we operate. As I mentioned earlier, we fund customers in over 25 countries throughout U.S., Europe and certain other jurisdictions worldwide. So different entrepreneurs, different places, different sort of perspectives on what success looks like. And for us, it’s trying to have the product suite that meets their needs at different stages really, sort of is what we’re all about.
Scott: Yeah. You said a lot of amazing stuff there. One of the things you were talking before turning on the mix, we were talking about how global Braavo is. And I hadn’t really thought of it this way, but maybe just explain why your global presence is actually, what, is it even bigger than the United States presence or growing faster?
Mark: Yeah. Well, I mean look, the mobile app ecosystem, the mobile app economy is a global one. Apple and Google, iPhones and Android phones in the hands of people all over the world and many of them interface with technology, the apps they’re using through the app stores, whether it’s Google Play app store or the Apple App Store. In Asia, there’s other Android app stores, but Apple has a dominant position as is Google Play. Not only are the end users all over the world, but the developers are all over the world, as well. As we know, building technology companies and investing in technology companies, there’s a treasure trove of engineering talent in Eastern Europe, for example. In Europe as well, in India and Asia, there’s great talent all over the world. The challenge, and we talked a little about this in terms of the long tail, the challenges that are discovered, how do you find people who are building cool things and sort of get financing funding in their hands? Well, again, the app stores are this incredible discovery platform. So, you can be a developer in the Ukraine and build an app and launch it in the app store, and you’re building a really good business. Traditional venture capital, traditional finance would never have found that Ukrainian developer, but because we can find them through the app stores where they’re present in the app store, we took a mandate as still a relatively young company to expand our reach outside of the U.S. And to work with companies in as many jurisdictions worldwide as possible. We started with Europe and so, as I said, yeah, it’s over 25 countries now that we support these developers that are incorporated as businesses outside of the U.S. More than 50% of our total customer base or our total funding volumes now goes to entrepreneurs outside of the U.S. And I think-
Scott: Congratulations on that. That’s really cool.
Mark: Thanks. Yeah. I think it’s reflective of the market, but also just the fact that we believe that if you can reduce transaction costs, if you can automate the system, then the cream rises to the top, right? And so, this democratization of access to capital, if you build good products, if you monetize your products, if you understand how to grow a business, you shouldn’t have to be in any of these sorts of pockets of the world where the VCs think everyone exists, right? You shouldn’t have to know someone that works at a VC firm. More than 50% of our funding goes to non-U.S. Businesses, but what’s also really cool is more than 50% of our funding all time has gone to women-led businesses.
Scott: No way. More than 50%? That’s amazing.
Mark: Yeah, because again, it’s purely data-driven, right? I don’t care who you are. I don’t care where you are. So long as you’re in a country that we can support, it doesn’t matter, your education background, if you’ve built a product, if you’ve got a business, if you’re monetized, if you know how to grow that business, the rest doesn’t matter. And as it turns out, when you sort of remove those barriers and those biases of people that think they know how to evaluate a business, as it turns out, as I said, more than 50% non-U.S. More that 50% women have received funding from Braavo.
Scott: That’s incredible. Well, we’re a woman-started business to Vanessa Kruze is my wife, started Kruze consulting, so tons of respect for you for doing that. That’s really, really cool. Hey, it’s Scott Orn at Kruze consulting. And before we get back to the podcast, quick shout out to ChartHop. ChartHop is one of my favorite new SAS tools on the market. And basically, what ChartHop does is it puts your org chart in the cloud. And I always like to say, it brings transparency to your organization. And so, everyone in your organization can see who they report to. They can see the full work chart of the company and how their group relates to other groups. It also has a lot of information on the individuals in the company. And so, you can click on the ChartHop profile and just get where people live, their experience, Slack handles, all this kind of stuff. And it’s just a really great tool. The other thing is ChartHop has started doing some cool stuff around compensation and budgeting planning. And so, you can actually start seeing what the cost structure of the company looks like during certain kind of scenarios. So, I’m loving ChartHop, check it out, charthop.com, We use it at Kruze, we really like it, and I can’t recommend it enough. All right. Back to the podcast. So, we talked about, you’ve kind of started in the App Store, because that was the immediate type of opportunity there. But again, before we turned on, sometimes we turn the mics a little late. Let’s recap this conversation. There’s also a pretty huge opportunity in other payment systems besides Apple and Google, right? The app stores?
Mark: Yeah. Look, I mean, using technology to automate sort of risk underwriting and then providing financing through sort of connected platforms, this is very extensible. And there’s other companies in the market that are doing this in other verticals, for example, what you need to really do is you need to be able to sort of connect to data systems. You need to understand those data systems. You need to be able to interpret that data in real time. You have to understand how the payment systems work as well, and then at a fundamental level, there’s a little bit of secret sauce. And for us, the secret sauce is not just looking at the flow of payments and the flow of money into Facebook for ads, but also into the way that end users interact with product. Because for technology businesses, right? And mobile apps, mobile games, even B2B, right? For technology businesses, pretty much any kind of software businesses, engagement with the product is this precursor to revenue, right? Revenue is the consequence of engagement. If you can actually look at this engagement layer, which is really what we’ve built at a fundamental level, you understand how end users engage with the product, how that engagement changes over time. You can understand not just what they’re doing today, but what that business will do in the future because they’re driving end user value. And again, you can apply that same type of logic to lots of different businesses throughout the technology ecosystem.
Scott: So, you guys are looking at, I’m hypothetical, but how many times people log in and actually play a game or something like that?
Mark: Yeah, retention.
Scott: Wow, that’s crazy.
Mark: Retention is a really, really critical metric for app businesses. It’s day one retention, day seven retention, day 30, we talk about apps as this one vertical, but it’s really many different types of businesses, right? So, there’s mobile games, you could download a mobile game, play it on the subway, that’s a hyper casual game. That has one set of game mechanics. Or you download a meditation app with an annual subscription, the monetization, the engagement, everything’s totally different. We’ve built systems to interpret all of this information as it applies to the business models that our customers have, everything from your annual subscription meditation app to a hyper casual game that someone plays on the subway. But the shared properties there, the app store or the analytics systems, the payment systems, those are really important for us to sort of automate the data collection and data interpretation. Then you would just have to apply your own logic to what that means from a sort of a risk management standpoint.
Scott: I’m sure there’s some experience in there too because you guys have been doing this for five years, so you probably, like any lender, you learn hard lessons sometimes, but it’s like paying your tuition and then you figure out, “Oh, we shouldn’t have done that one.”
Mark: Yeah.
Scott: You could probably make your algorithms a lot better, faster than a normal, like in your example of like the traditional venture debt model, where it takes years for someone like me or you to really learn how to underwrite a company, and the feedback loops are really slow because you’re waiting for this company to execute, execute, execute. Meanwhile, the app world or the gaming world, you’re getting feedback on a monthly basis or a weekly basis so you can learn.
Mark: It takes tremendous amounts of data to sort of build these algorithms, these learning algorithms, but that requires the ability to not just connect to that data, but to interpret it. And again, being a technology company first, that’s really where we focus most of our time and energy. And so, it’s put us in a position now where we can do that in really cool and interesting ways. And it’s just very different than any traditional type of funding or financing.
Scott: So, you’ve got the global app stores, then you’ve got the Stripes of the world and other, are there other ecosystems that you look at that are like that you’re playing in now that are just-
Mark: Yeah. So, because we have such a really strong brand position in the mobile app world, or really the global leader in non-diluted funding for app businesses, and this is mobile apps and mobile games, that’s such a huge market that we’re still a relatively young company. We like to maintain our focus, right? It’s very important as founders, as you know, to be focused on doing what you do and doing it better than anyone else in the world. However, because of what we build, because we believe that the models that we’ve built are extensible, we’re always looking at other ways to engage with companies that need funding that may not be right up in the sweet spot. And this is an ongoing basis as a founder, you’re always trying to expand your addressable market, right? So, for us, a Stripe is an obvious extension because many of our customers who monetize through the apps, they also monetize through Stripe. And so, we have an integration with Stripe right now. We also offer pretty complex analytics for our customers because we’re pretty good at looking at data and interpreting it, we figured we would share that with them. So, we have a Stripe integration right now and so they can see their revenue from the app stores right next to their Stripe revenue. And so, it’s logical that we want to find ways to fund based upon their Stripe earnings as well. To be very open, Stripe has launched their own financings solution. And what you’re seeing is more and more of these platforms themselves are finding ways to sort of create financial tools to help founders build their businesses more efficiently. Again, the benefit of our platform is that we see all of those systems, right? So, if you’re earning-
Scott: I was going to say-
Mark: … And so, if you’re earning money just from Stripe, you might get some financing from Stripe, but it’s only based on your Stripe revenue. And in most cases, once companies grow, they’ll start, diversifying the ways in which they sort of can monetize, and so, e-commerce.
Scott: Is that because of payment? They diversify because the cost of payment transactions become prohibitive? Or is it just because they go to a bunch of different channels? And so that-
Mark: Different channels. It’s typically different, particularly. It’s typically different channels. So, you could look at that through the lens of a game developer. A game developer may have mobile games, they might also have PC games, they might be distributing that through a platform like Steam for example, or they may be building console games. And so those are the different platforms from which they are monetizing, right? Or a D-to-C Brand, for example, they might start with Shopify, but then they start launching in other platforms are going director web, you name it. It’s usually a matter of as you grow, you start to diversify. The transaction costs can be prohibitive as well, there are different payments gateways that if you have certain level of scale, you can reduce your costs. But then you might want to keep some of that flow on Stripe, for example. As an advisor on the accounting and finance side that you guys provide, I’m sure you’re always trying to help your customers think through those things as well. And there’s tradeoffs between convenience and the cost of transactions or the cost of funding. We, Braavo and a company like Stripe win on convenience and flexibility. When you have a certain amount of scale, sometimes you can find other solutions, but evaluating that tradeoff is always sort of part of the conversation of any mature business.
Scott: Totally. And for our companies, a lot of times they’re growing so fast that it’s like, it doesn’t make sense to optimize that yet because it’s distracting, but there’ll be a time a year or two, three years out where it does make sense to optimize it because the numbers get big enough. I’m even thinking about that stuff internally at Kruze right now, because Stripe, you probably know this, but Stripe has a lot of different fees they’re starting to add on top of everything and it’s like, “Hey, wait a second. What’s going on here, Stripe?” So, they got to do their IPO too. They got to generate more income, and so that’s what they’re trying.
Mark: Yeah. Look, I think that the nice thing is, we live in a world where you have a lot of options, and that’s my philosophy for building our businesses as well, to help founders have optionality, right? Historically, there wasn’t a lot of optionality when it came to funding a technology business, you had to just raise venture and then raise some more venture and by the end of it, you’ve sold majority of your company and your outcomes are very binary. You either crash and burn, or you have a really huge outcome. We think optionality is really healthy, whether you’re picking a vendor for payments gateways, or whether you’re deciding which funding path you want to take for your business, or if there’s multiple paths. We provide a lot of optionality for founders, again at every stage. And it’s not just about one or the other, Braavo, some of our customers never raised equity, some have raised 20, $30 million in venture, but they still see value in having access to cheaper, non-dilutive sort of automated capital solutions.
Scott: Thank you so much. That’s really well said. I think, essentially a great place to end it right there. This has been a really great conversation. I think the optionality and just retaining more ownership as you go, especially the early stages, before you take that angel check, if you have the ability to tap into something like Braavo, then you give away most of your company at the first two stages, like the first two checks, seed and series A. And so, if you can mitigate some of that, you end up with just way more ownership in your startup. Even [inaudible] venture funding.
Mark: It makes a huge difference. The way I usually put it for some of our earlier stage customers is we charge cents on the dollar. So, you pay cents on the dollar for the funding from Braavo, we have a couple of different funding products, there’s different risk profiles, different durations, but it’s ultimately cents on the dollar. So, let’s just say it’s 10 cents on the dollar, for example, right? If that particular funding product helps you stretch your runway two or three months, and then a few additional inflection points, better CAC to LTV, your first 100,000 active paying subscribers, whatever those inflection points are, that could correlate to millions of dollars in enterprise value. So now you’ve paid cents on the dollar for millions of dollars on an enterprise value, because you were able to sort of stretch out your runway, you were able to hit a few more proof points for your business, and rather than being a $7 million pre-money or a $10 million pre-money company. And you’ve paid a few cents in the dollar to get there. That’s the value profit, I think. I try to convey to the companies that we’re working with who are at the earlier stages, certainly it’s always under important understand the cost of funding, but at least with this type of funding, it’s cents on dollar. With equity, it could be worth not only a huge percentage of your company, but tens, if not hundreds of millions of dollars.
Scott: That’s totally true. And also, just the convenience and ease, one of the things that you and I are talking about before turning the mics on is you can take a Braavo loan and then just pay it back. Whenever you want, pretty much. And so, it’s not like this lifelong decision you’re making, it’s a dip your toe in the water kind of decision and you can see what happens, if it feels right, and if you’re getting an ROI on that money.
Mark: Yeah, you’re right. I mean, it’s totally self-service and it’s also no long-term commitments, no penalties for stopping to work with us. And as convenient and self-service and low commitment as our platform is, one of the more rewarding things about building this business businesses that some of our earliest customers are still customers. We retain customers for years and years, and they just really value the flexibility. If they don’t need money, they’re not taking money. But they’re going to say, “Well, why don’t we stick around? Because once we need it again, we’ll take it.” It is. It’s very low commitment, very low risk, you can leave anytime, but most of our customers stay for years and years now.
Scott: I love it. All right, man. Well, can you tell everyone where they can find you and Braavo?
Mark: Yeah. So, our website is getbravo.com. It’s Braavo with two As. So getbraavo, B R A A V O.com. And you can find me on Twitter, LinkedIn, you name it, certainly feel free to reach out I’m Mark, mark@getbraavo.com.
Scott: And I can say that a bunch of the Kruze clients have worked with Braavo. great experience, that’s why I want to have you on the podcast, and I think this type of thing makes a lot of sense for a lot of companies. So, congrats.
Mark: Look, I appreciate it. And congrats on what you’ve built as well. You’re an entrepreneur yourself and you’ve got a great company, really, really good brand. And speaking for those shared customers, they’re very, very happy with the experience they have with you guys, so appreciate you giving us some time.
Scott: Appreciate it.
Mark: Good chat.
Singer: (Singing). It’s Kruze Consulting, Founders and Friends with your host, Scotty Orn.

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