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Posted on: 01/29/2020

Amy Lazarus of InclusionVentures shares how inclusion and diversity can drive innovation

Amy Lazarus

Amy Lazarus

Founder & CEO - InclusionVentures


Amy Lazarus of InclusionVentures - Podcast Summary

Amy Lazarus, founder of InclusionVentures, shares strategies to increase diversity - and innovation - by building a more inclusive startup culture. From the message companies send during the recruiting process to creating “brave spaces” inside the organization - Amy explains how best in class tech businesses are making their companies better places to work.

Amy Lazarus of InclusionVentures - Podcast Transcript

Singer: So, when your troubles are mounting in tax or accounting, you go to Kruze from Founders and Friends. It’s Kruze Consulting Founders and Friends with your host Scott Orn.
Scott: Welcome to Founders and Friends podcast, this is Scott Orn at Kruze consulting. Before we get to a really cool podcast with Amy Lazarus of InclusionVentures, quick shout out to our sponsor Rippling. Amy’s doing the raise the roof, Rippling, makes payroll benefits and also your IT infrastructure a lot easier. So, they’re awesome at payroll, they specialize in handling all your benefits, and they also have an IT integration with benefits that allows you to, when you hire a new person, you spin up their web services in their computer automatically. We did a study, and we know that it takes us between three and four hours at Kruze, which translates to about 140 bucks per hour for our IT service providers. With Rippling, you’re probably saving something around 400 bucks per new person you hire. That’s not even when people leave, so Rippling is the whole package. Payroll benefits and IT infrastructure. Check them out at www.rippling.com and now to the podcast guest, Amy Lazarus. Welcome Amy.
Amy: Thank you Scott. Great to be here.
Scott: Amy works or is the founder of InclusionVentures. Maybe you can tell the audience a little bit about InclusionVentures, and how you had the idea to start the firm.
Amy: Sure. InclusionVentures is known as a diversity equity inclusion consulting company. We help you bring out the best in your people so that together you can bring your world changing ideas to life. I’m going to break that down because both of those concepts are really important to us. Bring out the best of your people, who are those people? Who’s there? Who’s not there? Whose voices are valued, incorporated into the decisions? What’s the culture like? So, the people know who belongs there. Then what are those world changing ideas that you’re bringing to life? When we talk about product market fit, whose market are you fitting into, and how can you expand that so that it has a more diverse applicable experience? And therefore, a better UX and a wider market opportunity.
Scott: I love it. You’re bringing improvements in corporate culture to actually make products and organizations better.
Amy: Exactly.
Scott: I love that, you have a nomenclature, people, culture, product. Maybe you can walk everyone through each bucket there, and how InclusionVentures helps each subset.
Amy: Certainly. Actually, I realized I didn’t answer your first question, and I think that’ll help your listeners. So why I started the company, I was born and raised in a community outside of Cleveland, Ohio that pioneered racial integration, 50/50 black, white, still about that to this day. It was actually cool in high school to try out to be in the dialogue on race relations club. I wish there were more dialogue on race relations clubs in high schools. Our students have the skills and commitments to have conversations about race, about identity, about challenging topics that they can have, frankly better than a lot of executives in Valley. We also know that that can change. Ever since I was little, and you met me, so I haven’t grown vertically that much, pretty short. But ever since I was young, I’ve really been committed to what is the most effective and efficient way to make inclusion the norm? InclusionVentures is a natural outgrowth of that. Having been committed to this since high school, looking at what’s the most effective and efficient way to scale inclusion, really applied that at every stage of life. I started a similar program undergrad at Duke, and then did a Coro fellowship in public affairs applying this equity, and inclusion lens to every sector. Then in grad school again, just couldn’t escape applying a diversity equity inclusion lens to the work I was doing. People kept asking, “Why are you doing that?” And I would keep saying, how are you doing your work without this?
Scott: Because it works, right? It’s who you are.
Amy: Exactly, moved to Washington DC and was working at a consulting firm, in their human capital and leadership and diversity practice for a number of years. Then ran a nonprofit as their first executive director of the sustained dialogue institute. That was for five years focusing on dialogue to action on college campuses, workplaces, and communities. I had this moment five years in where I was like, “You know what? We’re not scaling fast enough. This work is so important. How can we do this so that we’re not going organization to organization doing some training and workshops, but really focusing on what’s in everyone’s hands?” And that’s technology, that’s media, that’s our consumption of products. So, started InclusionVentures to really reach everyone where we are.
Scott: That’s really cool. I feel that the culture has shifted to tech in the last 15 or 20 years, and you’ve figured out the best way to make social change is through the products we use.
Amy: Yes. That’s our hypothesis.
Scott: That’s really smart. Wow, I like that a lot, and you’ve been doing it for how many years?
Amy: I’ve been doing this since I was 10, but InclusionVentures just turned five the end of this year.
Scott: That’s amazing. Five, that’s really, really good. That’s an amazing background. Then going back to the people, culture, or product, people kind of have a little more background, but maybe talk about those three different buckets.
Amy: Sure. Anyone reading the news can see that diversity and inclusion is certainly in the news a lot, especially in tech and in every sector.
Scott: Not in a good way sometimes.
Amy: Not always in a good way, indeed. People often think that we’re talking about, “Well, let’s bring more people of color and women to the table,” and that’s kind of some of the people, that’s about representation. It’s about who has lived experience, it’s about who has different perspectives, and just literally who’s there and who’s not there. Then the culture piece is, “Well, who belongs? How do I know? When I walk into an office and I see the stereotypical previous founders of this law firm, and it’s all older white men, right? What message does that send? Now the intention might be we’re honoring the founders of this firm, but the impact on me is very different. How do I know? Even companies that we see now, a lot of our clients will call and say, “Hey, can you help us hire more diversity?” We say, “Well, let’s focus on inclusion first,” the culture of inclusion can help attract diversity, and also help make you deserving of that diversity once it arrives.
Scott: That makes total sense, it’s creating a safe place and creating a place where people are heard, then allows you to attract the amazing people that want to be heard, and want to work in a safe place.
Amy: Exactly. We actually, at InclusionVentures, we believe in psychological safety, but we call it a brave space because you’re in the comfort zone. That learning is not happening. If you’re in the danger zone, learning’s not happening.
Scott: Brave is really good.
Amy: What does it take to be in that brave space? People, culture, and product, the very products that are in our hands. Depending on who’s in the room, and what the culture is like in that product team, or in the decision making, that’s going to very much dictate, “What are the avatar choices that we have at our disposal. Where do I see myself in this product, or where do I not? Why were there band-aids that came out for my skin tone, I’m white? What are the implications for the lack of market there?” People are missing out on a much larger market. And what are the stories that, the messages that are sent, if I show up at the drugstore, and I don’t see myself in a product?
Scott: You’re getting at it at the root phase, when products are actually being developed and making sure. You had two use concerns, is it a revenue optimization thing, or is it just making sure that everyone’s heard and the market opportunity is bigger? The band aid example of someone’s skin color, it could really set someone off that their skin color is not reflected, and they could not like J and J or someone like that. Do companies that hire you, are they doing it from the math, and we can make 10 more million dollars in revenue with this service? What are their goals?
Amy: Sure, it’s a good question. The proactive companies are hiring us because of that. There are companies that are saying, “Ooh, we had this really embarrassing PR situation. Can you help us prevent that from happening in the future?” Or companies that are saying, “Hey, our competitors are having these embarrassing PR situations. Can you help us avoid that in the future?” So some of it’s that, but some of that’s just better product. People know that you want a more innovative product. Where does innovation come from? Not just diversity but well managed diversity. You need to have an inclusive environment. What we’re actually doing within the people and culture space, for example, there’s pretty well documented at every stage of the employee life cycle from recruiting, where there are potential bias traps. If you think about resumes going in, whose resumes are screened, how those resumes are screened, and then who gets the first call and the second interview, and whatnot. There’re pretty clear places where there could be traps for bias to show up. What we’re doing is working with product teams on from soup to nuts from beginning to shipping, where are these opportunities for bias to come in? And then how can you mitigate those? Not as a separate DNI thing over there, but really talking about this has to be embedded into your existing process, otherwise it won’t work.
Scott: People get that for hiring because of high profile lawsuits, and things like that. Also, people want to have a very diverse team to make great products. I love that you’re doing it in the actual product development phase. That’s what I thought was so cool about this is that the next iPhone might be, I don’t know if Apple is a client or not, but the next iPhone might be different because these things were factored in the actual product creation stage.
Amy: Yeah, Scott, I’m wondering if we could do a little exercise to make this a little bit more concrete for your listeners.
Scott: Let’s do it. I’m the guinea pig.
Amy: Okay. This is the brave zone. We find that language and shared language is so helpful, and so critical for any of this work to move forward with our clients. We had this concept called lenses. What are the lenses through which you see the world, and through which the world sees you? I’m wondering if we can each think for a moment, and I’ll demonstrate, but if you share seven lenses that are prominent for you. So let’s see. I am short, as we mentioned, I’m white, I’m a woman, I’m an entrepreneur, I live in Oakland. I wonder sometimes if I’m gentrifying that, but my husband is from Oakland, so do we net cancel each other out? Let’s see. I’m a devoted family member. I just had a niece who’s remarkable. And seventh wild card, let’s see, my family has been affected by mental health as have or will, 80% of the population. Some of those things you can tell by looking at me, and some of those things you don’t necessarily know unless I choose to share.
Scott: Yep. So, me, I would probably be a husband, I really like being married to my wonderful wife. I’m a father, I have an amazing little daughter. I grew up in the Bay area in a predominantly white suburb. That was kind of my upbringing. I went to Berkeley for undergrad, probably my fourth lens. I was exposed at 18 through 22, to people of all different backgrounds, philosophies, approaches to life. That was for me, a giant injection of diversity and just life learning for me, which I feel like I’ve taken through the rest of life. That’s been very, very helpful. I really enjoy sports, so that would be my fifth thing. I think I tend to see things through a financial lens because I’m oriented towards numbers and finance, and things like that. So that’d be six. My 7th would be, I’m a bald man with facial hair, with a goatee. If you see my avatar in the podcast, you’ll know that I have a goatee, and I wear a hat sometimes because I have a bald head. Those are my seven lenses.
Amy: Awesome. Thanks Scott. How do you see those lenses showing up, and affecting either your work interactions, or your work product?
Scott: In terms of my work product, I think a default lens of being financial oriented or numbers oriented, is very helpful and I think people pick that up about me, so then that adds credibility to me. In terms of being a father, I’m tired all the time so that was probably part of it. As a husband, and as a father I have other things that factor besides work in my life, that are super important to me. I have to have very crisp cutoffs, and I can’t work all night anymore or do things like that. In terms of cultural or growing up in a middle class, white suburb, I’m sure there’s some biases, and this is probably where I could use some of the training, or awareness that you drive because I don’t know how that’s probably affecting me, but I’m sure it is. My Berkeley diversity background, actually if you look at the people that work at Kruze Consulting, we’re a highly diverse group. That’s something that we do on purpose, but we also are just looking for the best people. It’s a really nice confluence of finding talented people, and all of us having different backgrounds and being open different backgrounds. In fact, we actually have a diversity channel on our Slack channel where Ginika Harris actually celebrates all different cultures, and we all chime in and talk about that. There’s a lot of efforts we’ve made to celebrate that kind of stuff. Hopefully it makes us a sounder workplace, a friendlier workplace, more accepting workplace. I think our clients probably pick up on that a lot too.
Amy: Great. Great. I love hearing those examples, and the awareness of the lenses, and then also some questions about lenses and where that’s coming in, and what it looks like to celebrate the diversity, and then also move from celebration into operationalizing, “All right, how are we doing this? And incorporating this into our onboarding or into the very nature of our client work, and what that actually looks like.” You can imagine if everyone in the organization had these shared lenses vocabulary, what we see, somebody with the examples you shared too of, “Hey, right now my lens of being a really tired dad is showing up. This is a really important conversation, I want to have it. Could we do it tomorrow?” And people being able to respect that instead of saying, “Oh Scott just canceled this meeting.” Sometimes sharing lenses that are appropriate to share, but then they’re also, I shared the mental health one for example.
Scott: I love the sharing of the lens. That’s a great terminology because it’s something objective, and it’s not like I’m coming across as an emotional state, but more of just that you’re who you are. That’s a really nice tip. I like that.
Amy: Cool. Even the emotional state piece, it’s like, “Wow, we’re in Silicon Valley, we can’t have emotions.” And so, we have another framework that people share, or that people have really resonated with about how you are approaching challenging conversations. Emotion is one quadrant, but it’s also around, is this from an intellectual perspective? Is this from a judgment or moral perspective? Is this from an action perspective? The number of people who veer away from emotions but then who yell from the intellectual, “I just really care strongly about this.” It’s okay to have feelings, our brains are wired for that, and yet our culture is wired to not enforce that.
Scott: Interesting you say that. I just had a coaching a thing yesterday, and I realized about myself that I have a hard time taking feedback when it’s intertwined with emotion, because I tend to just focus on the emotional aspect of it, and I don’t actually hear the other aspects of the feedback. So, what do you say, this is a lens, right? If I’m getting feedback, should I say like, “Hey, I’m in this lens right now where I’m picking up a lot of the emotion, but I’m not picking up the substance,” or how does that dialogue happen?
Amy: Yeah, I think that’s a great point. I think some of it is what is yours to do, and what is the person who’s giving you feedback, what is there’s to do? I would say that this falls back to you man, in terms of, “All right, here’s the lenses, by having this lens up, I have to be aware of it. But then what am I missing by having this lens potentially block other things.” Similarly, for me, we teach our clients things like, if you notice that your boss is demonstrating some bias around something, you can ask them questions like, “What lenses are informing your decision? What lenses are coming into play here?” So, when my team asks me those questions, I’m like, “Okay, A, feedback. B, good. They notice some biases that I’m not aware of. We have to address these so that we can make more optimal decisions.” I think some of it is having that shared vocabulary of, this is queuing you up to say, “I’m giving you some feedback in a caring, constructive way. Are you ready to take it? And if not because you’re tired or you’re getting blocked off, that’s okay, let’s have this at a time when we can.”
Scott: That’s very helpful. What do you do if someone opts out of giving, or accepting feedback? Instead of saying, “Let’s talk tomorrow,” what do you do if they just say like, “I don’t want to talk about it.”
Amy: I think that there are several, it depends, if this is feedback that is about performance or that can affect this person’s place in the organization, there’s a lot of places where lenses come into play there. A lot of times people don’t want to give feedback to women or to people of color. They have higher racial anxiety, and gender anxiety, so then people don’t get that feedback. So then how can they improve?
Scott: I hadn’t thought about that bias, that makes total sense though.
Amy: Yeah, it’s fascinating. There’re studies that show that doctors, and healthcare practitioners will actually ask fewer questions to their patients of color because they’re afraid they’re going to ask the wrong thing.
Scott: Oh my gosh.
Amy: As a result, their patients don’t actually share the accurate information, and they’re not getting the care that they need, so part of healthcare inequities. Same thing with teachers. They’ll grade their students of color, they’ll ask fewer questions, or give less feedback on an essay. How can you improve if you’re not getting the feedback? McKinsey has some new research out around this from their fifth annual Women in the Workplace study, that shows that people are a lot less likely to follow up on those hard conversations. Feedback’s hard already, then if you layer on these different lenses, that’s why having some structure is really important. That’s a longer answer to your question.
Scott: How do you create that structure, or is that where InclusionVentures comes in to help facilitate?
Amy: We can certainly help with that in terms of, a lot of organizations have existing structures of, “Hey, here’s how we do performance reviews,” or, “Here’s how we do feedback at a performance review.” There should never be new information for someone, it should always have been in the one-on-ones, oftentimes just in one-on-ones to have space for feedback, and really take that space and make that space. It’s also practicing giving feedback and receiving feedback in ways that are aware that you’re navigating lenses. We’ll teach managers or executives of like, “Here’s what you want to say, here’s how you might say it in a way that is most effective.”
Scott: That’s really helpful. Okay, so walk me through an engagement for Inclusion Venture. I’m building the newest, coolest piece of hardware, or a new software service I call, I’ve heard I need to talk to Amy. What do I do, and how does it work?
Amy: Great. So, you call, we have a conversation. All of our engagements are customized. We work with you, we talk with you on the phone about what are your goals, what happens if you don’t apply a diversity, equity, and inclusion lens to this? Let’s figure out what it would look like to do that. We work within your cadence, and your resources to do so. For the specific example that you shared, I think a process audit, or a product audit would be best. We would come in and for our product audit, either you show us, we sign all the things signed, the NDA of course, and we take that very seriously, but then we look at what is your current product from different perspectives. Then we identify potential bias traps, and help suggest ways to mitigate those. Now the thing is, those features showed up in how you’re currently designing. If you want to stop those from continuing to show up, can we do a process audit where we look at, where are your meetings? What’s your user validation? Where’s the research phase? All of that to shipping, and be able to again, identify important inflection points to mitigate bias along the way. We can come in and do that. If you want it to stick, you all have to be part of it. The co-developing piece is so critical. I’m not a product engineering expert, I’m an expert in DE and I, you are the product expert. Let’s work together on that. Now of course we have things that we’ve learned along the way, and that we can share as best practices, and pitfalls to avoid. This would take the form of workshops, team observations, some coaching, and then some piloting of, “Hey, based on what we co-developed, let’s implement this, and let’s see what worked as we imagined and what we want to iterate on for the next year.”
Scott: That’s really cool. What are the points in that process that can be problematic? For example, I could see there being, it’s a stereotype, but a superstar software engineer who doesn’t want to play by the rules. Or maybe there’s the Steve Jobs hardware genius who has to have things look their way aesthetically specifically. How do you navigate towards some of these inflexible people in flexible positions?
Amy: Great question. Two ways, one, constraints can breed creativity. If we know this is a constraint that we have to work with, then great, let’s optimize for that or let them know that going into it. Two, the relationships and the hierarchy in this process are so critical. If we have the cover of the CEO, or the VP of engineering, or VP of product, whose sign off do we need in order to say, “Look, you might be a ‘superstar engineer’, that’s not going to fly anymore because your superstar engineer, Dom, has created this really biased algorithm, or has not mitigated this really biased algorithms.” How are we evaluating “superstars” to be able to get back to that?
Scott: That’s such a good way of saying that, they may seem like a superstar because they ship code on time, but they’re not a superstar because they’re embedding your product, or service with some bad biases. That’s great, that’s really cool.
Amy: Thanks. I love you said bad biases, because not all biases are bad. Biases help us survive in so many ways. The issue is when biases that at one point served to be able to separate a lion from something that would not eat us, are now affecting us in the workplace and getting into places that are not serving us.
Scott: That makes total sense. The Apple thing with the credit cards is a great example of this. I don’t even really understand what happened, but they have some type of automated algorithm, underwriting algorithm and women have been systematically getting different scores than men. That’s the kind of project that they should have had you six months ago.
Amy: I agree. We’ll still be happy to talk with them.
Scott: If you work at Apple, pick up the phone.
Amy: That’s a great example of, and the letter that they put out to customers says, I’m going to paraphrase here, they’re not trying to put out sexist code. They’re basing this based on a number of criteria that have been identified for who pays their bills on time? How many credit cards do you have out? There’s research that shows that women tend to have more open credit cards, if they do more of the shopping for the home, which is a whole other. We’re working within systems that are affecting the individuals, and the organizations and all those decisions. Looking at, how are these decisions, and how are these parameters that we think are being just really subjective, excuse me, really objective, are actually being subjective.
Scott: The other big thing is AI, sometimes it’s not always AI, but that kind of data pattern matching approach is sweeping Silicon Valley. Even if we use it, we use it to recognize 80% of the transactions when we’re doing our accounting. A computer does it, we don’t do it. I don’t know if the accounting bias is going to ruin the world, or something like that. But I’m sure there’s AI and other types of systems that could really mess some stuff up. How do you approach the AI question?
Amy: Yeah, it’s such a great question. It’s one of the ones that keeps me up at night, frankly. A few months ago, Amazon shared that they had created an internal algorithm, to be able to figure out who they should hire from the 1000’s of resumes they receive. You may have seen this, and their code was based on their current staff, so who’s currently there in engineering positions? Mostly men, mostly white and Asian men. So the algorithm was actually set up, if you were the president of a women’s chess club, you would not get recommended to move forward. If you went to an all-women’s school, you would not get recommended to move forward. They ended up scrapping the project. That’s one example of who’s getting hired, but then it also goes to, there’s facial recognition. Who’s getting arrested? Who’s getting bank loans? The risk assessment really affects people’s lives. The product, obviously it goes back to the people and culture who’s there, who’s lenses are in the room, and who’s lenses are not in the room? If you’re going in having a few user experience interviews with N equals three, that doesn’t work. How can you be more inclusive, yet efficient in your design process so that you can really create the best product for people who aren’t in the room as well? Then there’s a whole, “Don’t do about me, without me.” Really making sure that you are hiring and employing diverse perspectives. Our research also shows that once folks have been hired, they often don’t want to be the only one saying, Hey, what about this gender lens?” Or, “Hey, that actually doesn’t work.
Scott: It’s a burden they have to carry, they don’t necessarily sign up for, they don’t want to carry that burden.
Amy: Exactly, and the research shows that if you have the magic tipping point is about 33%, or one third of not the only in the room. If you’re looking to hire, hire in cohorts, hire three women at a time, hire three women of color at a time. What that looks like, so that you can benefit from the different perspectives that you’re trying to bring in.
Scott: That’s really cool. We talked about some companies that maybe, or processes that could be better. Who’s someone who’s doing it really well? Is there someone out there that you’re like, tip my cap, or you probably can’t talk about your clients?
Amy: I’m thinking of examples, and I can’t fully name them. There’s some that are really intentional about changing their process. Another company based in Seattle for example, realized going through our process that one of their inflection points, to get to shipping is to do user validation. But they were sending the same person who had done the earlier research, to do the validation on the very product that they created. So, they realized that’s confirmation bias.
Scott: They were too informed.
Amy: Exactly, and so very simple switch of adding one more person in to go on those interviews, is bringing this whole different perspective that then can result in a different pattern. Some great examples of what’s working well in terms of the people, and who they’re bringing in. We worked with a software company, a software team that was looking to hire, and they really wanted to hire an entrepreneur. We said, “What about hiring an entrepreneur? Why is that?” Because it limits the pool, who can take the risk to be an entrepreneur? Who can take the risk to fail? It goes back to the systems. By talking about this, they said, “We actually want someone who is entrepreneurial, who can take risks. We also want someone who’s a fast learner, and we want someone who knows the tech ecosystem, and the entrepreneurial ecosystem.” Great, that completely widens it. Focusing on really taking a step back to ask the questions of, why are we doing what we’ve always done, is really important. Sometimes having an external lens to help you make that okay, and help you walk through that process.
Scott: I love it. If I were to sum up, it’s all about recognizing the people’s lenses they’re talking from, or seeing the world through, and then having the people there, the right people, everyone included, having their voices heard and then embedding this in the product development processes early as possible, basically.
Amy: You make it sound so simple.
Scott: Well, I just got an education on it. That’s amazing. Okay. You’re open for business, been around for five years, you’re ready to go?
Amy: We’ve been around for five years, we’re here, we’re ready to work with organizations that are committed to this. If companies want to check the box, we don’t work with them. We’ve found that people have to be committed to this, in order for it to work. For folks that really want to bring their product and culture to the next level, and want to really be able to leverage that innovation, we’d love to work with you.
Scott: I love it. Not only are you helping other people with their products, but you’re also founding yourself. I like asking this question, what is one piece of advice you give all the other founders you work with, or your friends who are starting companies? If you look back on yourself five years ago, what piece of advice could you have used?
Amy: Surround yourself with the best people. Our team is incredible. I think Warren Buffett says, make sure you’re not the smartest person in the room. That is easy any day, but our team has been doing this in their different perspectives, and worlds for years, and just to learn from people who are smarter than I am in so many ways is so important. I would say to founders, surround yourself with people who are smarter than you, and who have different lenses, and really be intentional about what lenses are on your advisory board, what lenses are on your team, and not on your team, and how can you seek those out.
Scott: I love it. Amy, thank you so much for coming by. Can you tell everyone where to find InclusionVentures? How to reach out?
Amy: We are at inclusionventures.com. You can reach me directly at Amy@inclusionventures.com, or on Twitter at Just Humanity, or Norm Inclusion.
Scott: I love it, and the bottom line is you make products more successful, and help companies actually be more successful by just including voices, people, and getting into the product development cycle very, very early.
Amy: Exactly.
Scott: I love it. Thanks for coming by.
Amy: Thanks very much Scott.
Speaker 1: When your troubles are mounting, in tax or accounting, you go to Kruze from Founders and Friends. It’s Kruze Consulting Founders and Friends with your host Scott Orn.
Scott: Thanks, so much Amy for coming on the podcast. Quick shout out to Rippling, payroll, HR and also IT infrastructure. Rippling is awesome, check them out, rippling.com. Also, a little perk here I’m throwing in, we would like to get more reviews on the app store. Amy’s nodding her head. Please, if you review us, we will send you a tee shirt, and I’ll read it on the podcast. Amy, you can review, that might be biased. I don’t know.
Amy: I can’t wait for a new tee shirt. This is going to be great.
Scott: Kruze Consulting. Check us out on the app store, or give us a review, and thank you for listening to Kruze Consulting Founders and Friends. Thanks.

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